Yes or No to Pay Offer? 2

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It’s an appalling situation we’re all in and I fear it won’t improve anytime soon. I’ve done 20 years next year and I’ll be retired before I get to the top of my band (I’m 50 ). Whilst I don’t begrudge colleagues in NPS receiving this pay offer I don’t find it frustrating that colleagues in NPS with single figures service will be paid more than me within a couple of years. The CRC I work for have already said they won’t be paying a pay award this year other than the increment.

I am in a very similar position as you and it makes my blood boil. Yet again loyalty, knowledge is not adequately remunerated.

Many aren't staying - early retirement or off to better roles... we've lost 3 NPS PO's this month to our DTV team & good for them - going to an employer who appreciates them instead of grinding them into oblivion. The blame for the crisis in staffing figures lays firmly with the tories.

Agreed - I doubt I'm alone in considering the DTV jump myself! X

I am looking at the fact that the FAQ from the employer says that if 61% of all union members do not accept the deal, we get zero. And it's back to the negotiating table for everyone.

Yes and in each Union not just overall figures. Don't remember this from previous ballots on pay (though those are so long ago I could have forgotten).

It's based on the "new" government rules that say a union vote is not valid unless 61% of the membership votes for it. It was a rule brought in to stop strikes but it could now cost us a rise as well. Unless someone higher up the tree decides to ignore it because it makes them look bad - which they haven't cared about before so unlikely to change. With Unison being difficult over the Competency aspect of the future (which still isn't agreed anyway), we could be facing nothing. Especially if upset Napo members who feel that any percent less that 11% right away is not "good enough". I will take 3% or 6% over two years in preference to sitting at the same place for yet another 2 years.

I’ve just been reading the FAQ linked to the pay award. Setting aside my own or anyone else’s feelings about the strength of the current award I wanted to seek some clarity about what happens come April 2020. The current pay deal will expire at that point and whilst the restructuring of the pay bands indicates that those of us who have been stuck in the middle of their band since 2010 will finally reach the top, offering a light at the end of the tunnel. If I’m reading the FAQ correctly though come 2020 we could return to civil service pay constraints and not make that final leap. Can someone in the know clarify?

Katie Lomas Progression will happen after the end of the 2 year deal (from 2020 onwards) but we will be back to negotiations around a cost of living award for 2020 and beyond. The tables provided by the employer show this, the calculator only shows this year and next year. Pay progression is factored into spending and budgets, cost of living increases are not and have to be separately agreed by Treasury.

Although you say "pay progression is factored into spending..." there are many people (and Unison statement) querying what happens from April 2020. Unison have said any move to the next paypoint as of April 2020 depends upon the Treasury. Is the next pay move guaranteed or not? I understand if it isn't we would still keep pressing for it but it would help to know. Thanks.

Katie Lomas Hi, we discussed this at the meeting with the employers today as it is really unhelpful that mixed messages are out there! We are just agreeing wording of the clarification with the employers and will send out comms as soon as we can (likely tomorrow) to clarify as well as explain how this has become muddled. I hope this helps.

Katie Lomas thanks for your input. I think there are a number of things that may benefit from clarification including the information in respect of post 2020 progression. The current pay deal seems to be around restructuring pay bands and rightfully so but if I’ve read it correctly there remains the absence of a cost of living increase (which we obviously haven’t received for a number of years). Without this the % increases over the next two years are negated by rising inflation and whilst I, like others, appreciate all and any additional money in my pay check at the end of the month the pay deal in real terms becomes much less significant.

Thanks Katie. I have been encouraging members not to vote until answers to queries are given so yes clarification of this will be very helpful I think!

Of course! We will get info out as soon as we possibly can...

Thanks! I've been following this from my holiday, and what happens in 2020 makes all the difference in my view of the offer.

I think if you had been qualified for 17 years (like me) and only half way up the pay scale you might understand why this is a good deal! I should have been at the top of the scale 10 years ago so I’ve lost £50,000 at least not including cost of living! There’s always winners and losers but I think for the thousands languishing in the middle like me it’s an unbelievably good deal.

I was in the same situation when I retired two years ago. Detrimental to final salary pension. Glad this is being addressed.

Can anyone who has been qualified as PO 17yrs or so remember back to 2006/7 pay deal & thereafter as to possible more rapid progression up payspine for those who qualified after them? It's just that we've got members here who are on same pay point as others who qualified approx 13 yrs ago so I'm wondering if it's linked to that pay deal? Many thanks!

Katie Lomas In the 2007 deal anyone with less than 10 years service went to bottom of new scale along with newly qualified/ new in post staff. The current pay deal is not linked to any other deal. Aim is to shorten pay scales.

Hi Katie yes I know there's no link but as members are looking at and comparing pay points because of THIS deal, the 17yrs in but being at same pay point as those 13 yrs in has come up & we've had queries as to whether they are at right point on pay spine. It just occurred to me it might be linked to that old pay review. 

Hi, I am 16 year qualified. I remember the last pay deal and it resulted in people being placed at the same pay point as me who had only just qualified. I felt cheated at that point and up until this new pay deal been stuck in the middle.

Yes I can understand how galling that must have been. I remember a lot of emphasis on the need to boost position of starters and those at lower point of scales and the justification for giving up of leave to help fund this. We had a very heated branch meeting with Judy Mcknight! The reduced pay spines in this current offer are good but there will be still be some staff who gain more quickly than others. Can't juggle any more figures at this hour though but thanks for your help and all best for pay progress!

Was looking at it today and was confused as to why we were told it was a 3% payrise when it's actually 2% with a 'top-up', or in some cases a 1% with a 2% 'top-up'. What gets me more, though, is the new banding where NQOs in 2020 will take 5 years to reach top of band (subject to competency of course) but I will be 11 years post-qualification in 2020 and only in the third band from top of range! Nothing makes sense other than the financial pain of paying everyone with more than 5 years post-qualifying experience at that at top of scale would clearly break every budget going. The point is, we should have been there anyway.

Katie Lomas You might need to refer to the pay tables rather than the calculator. The calculator only tells you what you will get for this year and next year. Most who are currently in the middle of the pay Band will be at top in April 2020...

Yes, I looked at the pay scales, too, and in the main they place you down the pay scale disproportionately to where you should be after the 2 year re-alignment process. It will be a 5 year progression to top of scale but after 11 years post-qualification I am still 2 bands away from that. I'm guessing there are so many people who should be at top of scale it would kill the whole deal. The problem is, there indeed should be so many more people at top of scale!

I’m still trying to get my head around it.

Perhaps it is just crap if like me you are already on the max. I have the luxury of already earning 36k plus LW. If l was getting five grand over 2 years l might feel differently.

This isn’t a loaded question, but for someone at the top of their band what were your realistic expectations?

My expectations were low to be frank. It is not the money, which is meh once you net out the bungs. It is the feeling that this is only half a deal.

Before l can wholeheartedly support this l need to know what the competency framework that those following me will get.

I just don't trust them to not screw us with Stakanovite targets to achieve "competence".

Hi. I understand the reservations about something so unknown, I share them. But the documents shared said that they will be developed alongside the unions and with their agreement, which probably means another ballot on the final framework. It will require members to actively participate in its development. For the best comparison of what it will look like, we were told it will mimic the NHS model. 

It’s worth noting I think that the one off payments are pensionable which is unusual and a positive factor.

They are but I don't think the transition payment is (otherwise you just lift the top up by £300. 

We were told all payments were pensionable. 

That’s certainly the information I recall, that all payments received as part of the deal are pensionable.

NPS FAQs doc says the £300 is non-consolidated and pensionable.

Because not everybody will know about Stalinist Russia and I am a terrible nerd, Alexi Stakanovich was a Russian miner who cut 102 tons of coal in a single shift. Workers were encouraged to emulate the great Stakanovich (without being told that he had the best machines in Soviet Russia, two assistants and a 12 foot wide seam of coal. Insane targets were set for workers based on this and if you could not get your 102 tons in an 18 inch seam with a pick axe you suffered pay cuts.

Or were sent to the Gulag as a capitalist wrecker.

Given the amount of guff we've had to read I'm amazed we can think with any coherence!!

I’m still trying to get my head around it.

I have been band 4, qualified in 2004. Can someone explain to me when I will progress to top of band and what is the top band 4 amount - has this changed? Have seen the calculator in email sent this afternoon but still confused. Looks like I've only had £300 salary increase plus the £300 'bonus ' and then another £300 next year!! About £3.50 a month then??

Back in the 80's when my wife worked payroll she said that £200 a year was £10 a month. Despite the changes in tax since then I have always used that as a ready reckoner and it seems to work (cos as income tax has dropped NI has more than doubled to make up for it). So 300 is 15 a month and the one off payment will come as a one off payment in November. I think that this is a shit deal when you pull out all the window dressing. 

I read that if you currently earn above £32k then you will be at the top of the band by April 2020. £37k.

So I will get 15 a month backdated to April and then a further 35 a month the following April 19. This will be worth about 50 a month for me at the top of the scale.

Those under £32k will reach the top of the band by 2023.

It just talks about up to 2019 and then performance related pay comes into play from 2020 so will I jump from 32,375 to 37k in two years ???

Did not really look at this but as far as I can see you go from 32,375 to 33,334, if we vote for it, to 34,342 in April 19. Then finally in April 20 you get to scale top of 37,174. That last step is a big one! So for you this is a big pay rise and you might feel it worth the lack of guaranteed development beyond that.

This is not a pay deal for us dinosaurs, good for you recent entrants though (or for those stuck in the doldrums of the pay freeze all their careers)

Yes seems odd. I guess they are stringing it out as long as they can.

Do you know what those on £33,344 (pay point 94) will get?

Now understand that I do not really understand their stupid table, but; I think that you would go from there to 34,342 now and scale max in April.

I MAY be wrong about yours and step one on the scale will be to 32,688 and from there to 34,342 in April. This means that your bung would be bigger for the year we are in.

So I also jump £3,000 in April? Presumably the top is 3% higher though by then. Thanks, that’s better than I thought but shit for most people!

No this is a 2 year deal to 2019. There MAY be a pay award for 2020, assuming that we have any economy left. Alternatively we may all be camping in motorway service stations and living off feral cats.

Is there a doc anywhere that says what pay you should be on depending on year of qualification?

I have found the reckoner. Have my work laptop at home with me. Your pay will go to 32688 back dated to April but will have 658 top up an 300 transition bung so a total of 1271 (around 1000 in one hit) then in April you will go to 34342 all substantive. You will then move to scale max in April 20.

Can you check mine on your laptop? £33,344.

4/18 34,342 =998 rise plus 300 bung
4/19 37,174 (scale max)
4,130 less the bung is 3830 rise. That is the sweet spot l think.

Yep, anybody who is on your pay point will end up at max in April on this deal.

So those who got to the top, if that’s £37,174 at April 2018, won’t that be 38,289 (with 3% increase) in 2019?

No that is the total as of April 2019. Then we negotiate the pay rise for 2020.

So the minimum 3% is a cost of living rise and incremental rise? They are cheeky f*%kers those Tories.