Thursday 23 July 2015

Severance or Redundancy?

I am very concerned that nobody seems to be acknowledging the different legal statuses between it being called voluntary "severance", as opposed to "redundancy". I am NOT a NAPO member, but in the information from them I have read on line recently, nowhere does the difference between these terms seems to have been mentioned, acknowledged - and indeed still seem to be being used 'interchangeably'. Please someone look at this and research it properly and act accordingly! It could make a big difference to people - especially the over 55s whether they accept voluntary 'severance', or are made voluntarily or even compulsorily 'redundant'.

Accepting 'severance' one is in effect signing away any rights - and are walking away from their job with their blessing. I believe this means you are no longer entitled to claim any state benefits for 6 months (someone more knowledgeable than me might wish to check/confirm that!). Redundancy however leaves you with a totally different status - your employer is putting you out of work.

I phoned Greater Manchester LGPS yesterday, and was told that anyone over the age of 55, who is made "redundant" (ie. NOT who has taken a severance deal!) is entitled to draw their pension, without loss or penalty (in line with what I understand they are 'offering' those who accept the severance). So for starters, if you were made "redundant" by your CRC and are over 55 - you get the pension anyway. Anyone of any age would get a 'statutory redundancy' payout - more the older you are, check the .gov website. And you would (I believe) be entitled to claim state benefits.

Therefore, surely if people do not sign the "severance" deal and the staff are going anyway, the CRCs will have to make people voluntarily or compulsorily "redundant" - which I accept for some (not all) may be less in actual cash. But it does at lease feel the more honest exit in principle.

If no one acquiesced to this "severance" in any of the CRC's I can see that Sodexo (or rather the CRCs Ltd) would then HAVE to go down the "Redundancy" path which would be MUCH more painful, for them. It also makes one wonder if the sudden change from "redundancy" to "severance" wasn't part of a little nod and wink deal with the Government, to reduce the loss of employment statistics (severance wouldn't count - we are all agreeing to it!), and a way of ensuring that 600+ people don't suddenly start claiming JSA etc.

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Well said. I hope Jim features those comments in a main blog article.

I am only a 'common man' but as I think it through - severance is merely another way of saying accepted an invitation to resign - that is voluntarily surrendering one's employment contract - so for a start I would want the equivalent of whatever I might be entitled to claim as an unemployed person for myself AND my dependent family, for whatever time I am eligible to so claim PLUS as much as necessary to take account of my occupational pension in the long term AND a bit more as compensation for all the inconvenience involved.

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Thank you and yes, I hope Jim does feature this issue about the differences between "Severance" and "Redundancy" somewhere prominent. I would be interested to see a Union response to the legal difference between "Severance" and "Redundancy" - any takers?

Frankly, I of course feel that the Unions should not be letting the employers 'off the hook' with the original agreed EVR - but that is a different issue - and anyway, once people have signed that "severance" deal they are off the hook with you, anyway - you've just agreed to walk away, with the offer - and are left with no rights at all. You and the CRC totally finished - the line drawn.

I'm concerned that people are going to 'sign their rights away' with this "Severance" offer, without it having been properly explained, or understood from a 'legal status' standpoint.
I feel that people are being hustled into signing this deal - with the very short window to submit 'expressions of interest'. I understand that most decent employers will pay for everyone to take proper legal advice before signing anything along these lines. Is that being offered by the CRCs Ltd, and if not, negotiated by the Unions?

Again I say - I am not in a Union, and am glad I haven't been paying them, as I don't see any of them acting in the sufficiently enquiring way I would expect and want for my dues. Sometimes and for some of us, it may be better to take NO ACTION. They want us gone - then let them make us redundant, and I mean "redundant".


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Yes - no action - MAYBE right for some BUT only after gaining individualised legal & FINANCIAL advice to protect one's contracted rights and make the best of the situation as far as long term pension rights are concerned - which is likely to be different for different folk for a host of reasons.


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This from Facebook:-

Chas Berry 'Can't be bothered anymore'? Bottom line is we are totally opposed to the job cuts and continue to be so. At the same time we have a duty to those staff who have had enough to secure the best terms rather than face compulsory redundancy which could be on a last-in-first-out basis. If you read the whole statement you will see WHAT ARE THE UNIONS DOING

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Sad that dumbing down everyone's entitlement across six CRCs is seen as democratic. Three of the six CRCs embedded enhanced terms into their CRC t&c's. Insightful? Fortuitous? Planned? I don't know, but my CRC did just that. I'd like my terms & conditions honoured, thanks very much. Colleagues who left last year got preferential terms, some even got CRC jobs as well! NAPO could have advised CRCs to embed t&c's, in fact, they should have advised members of everything instead of playing this "I can't tell you" shit.

In deeply unhappy & shitty circumstances I have perfectly acceptable EVR t&c's which NAPO seemed determined to relinquish so that others can grab a few more pennies. 15 months' money for 24 years' unblemished service (& 24 years' fully paid up membership) is poor, but manageable. 7 months' money is derisory.

50 comments:

  1. I beg to differ but CRC staff DO KNOW the ball park difference between SEVERANCE and REDUNDANCY. Not every CRC employee will be given the choice / or can opt for SEVERANCE or REDUNDANCY or vice versa. So they will judge the merits ( cost benefit analysis – lol ) of whatever they can apply for or opt for. Just like EVR was divvied out to the chosen / select few me thinks SEVERANCE or REDUNDANCY will be Meted out
    the same. Dire and Scary. Ah well there’s always the possibility of agency work with a CRC or NPS ..... I can feel a song coming on (Whistle)
    Some things in life are bad
    They can really make you mad
    Other things just make you swear and curse
    When you're chewing on life's gristle
    Don't grumble, give a whistle
    And this'll help things turn out for the best...
    And......always look on the bright side
    of life...

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    1. Differ all you like poor post no argument put forward keep singing tho that was poor too.

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  2. I work for CRC and agree, it's a house cleaning exercise nothing more, it's been pretty well much in a roundabout way been discussed at our meetings. The choice ultimately is with our management, if you apply and they don't want you to go then you will be refused. Then they will go to statutory redundancy and shed who they want to leave citing hands are tied we have to make cuts. Sodexo want the numbers to coincide with their business model and the reality is, they don't really care who stays or go as long as their business model works. I am sure that there will have been some kind of pot allocated x amount for redundancy payments, make it fit. But this is only my opinion, which may be completly wrong, lets hope so.

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  3. Warning from ceo..don't wait for compulsory redundancies. .you may not be picked. In other words choose the cheapest option or we'll make you work in this hell forever

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    1. ... Is that a threat? Or a promise?

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    2. Noone can make you work in hell or anywhere else 18:20. You could look for another job.

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  4. Anonymous 23 July 2015 at 18:20 forgot to mention being managed out, thats an even cheaper option for CEOs

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    1. Managing someone out costs a fortune in management time. It is not a cheap option for anyone.

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    2. Managed out by incompetent PSO mangers I would like to see that.

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    3. Sorry, but I dont understand your response 23:58

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  5. Moving doom and gloom on this blog. Sad times. Jim sort it out

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    1. Let's have a more balances view on things as opposed to daily focus on sodexo CRCs, which understandably, are having difficult times

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    2. Then provide a different viewpoint, instead of passing negative comment on those who contribute!!!

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    3. I think the other Crcs are letting sodexo break ground (and people) so there's relevance to others.

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    4. Not JIm Napo short sighted mess surely

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  6. "Let's have a more balanced view on things as opposed to daily focus on sodexo CRCs, which understandably, are having difficult times"

    Stuff like this utterly amazes me.

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    1. Why JB its either a sodexo helper or napo sympathiser. Either way this is the only issue at the moment because when Ian Lawrence sells out the six CRC in the so called its what they want every other CRC will see the new lowest denominator. Yet at that point why not cut a little deeper and outdo sodexo. Take your blinkers off people.

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  7. You amaze me Jim and how you get when someone posts something you don't like!! 19.38 - very good point made.

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  8. To add.... I struggle with all the focud being on the problems in the CRC when there are a lot of good things happening across other CRCS. I just worry all the appalling things happening in Sodexo CRCS will scare other staff working elsewhere and I apply this to NPS and CRC staff. That's all

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    1. "there are a lot of good things happening across other CRCS."

      Excellent - do tell us about it then.

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    2. TTG, ORA and support for clients on short sentences, Joint up working, excellent work staff are doing bin creatively working with clients, continued use of SEEDS, Greater emphasis on the client, the list is endless and slot of staff in the CRC are giving there all day after day. I net there are some people working on the office now going that extra mile for a client. Surely you accept Jim that the CRCS are doing some excellent things as our NPS colleagues

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    3. Where on earth are you working 20:32? TTG non existent here, no support for short sentences apart from already overloaded PSO's who are already nudging 100 cases; previous joined up working decimated - old partnership agencies pulling out left, right and centre; no one understands ORA; SEEDS has gone the distance; and the client is last on the list of priorities. I'm glad you like your CRC, come and try working for ours. It's shit.

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    4. I'm sorry to hear that 20.40

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    5. Probation Officer23 July 2015 at 21:19

      Anon 20:30 that is utter shite. Please tell what region/office this is as if true I know a lot of staff about to put in a transfer. CRC's I know of have reduced risk levels to increase caseloads, removed resources and threatened redundancy. TTG is not running as cannot be resources and SEEDS is no longer mentioned. Clients are complaining too, more than before!

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    6. I am sorry if you feel all the comments on here are negative 20:17, and we don't want to frighten any other CRC's, but we all received our letters today in SYCRC and it stirs up negativity and it is a release to read and comment which is better than doing it at work. Thanks to all the contributers on here as if you read the comments as they are intended it gives you the information that you need.

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    7. Exactly 2040 same at ours. 2032 must be signing the mileage forms and certainly not doing the day job.

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    8. ERRRR why are you biting 2032 obviously a joke blog . Good laugh though !

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  9. Dont leave us in suspence..

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  10. Wouldn't severance be taxable. I doubt Sodexo give 20% of their money to the tax man so I'll be damned if I will!

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    1. Apparently (.gov website) a lump sum severance payment of UNDER £30K is NOT taxable. Employers will deduct tax from any salary or holiday pay they owe you.

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  11. Me thinks 20;32 is really Chris grayling.....come on Grayling you.'be been outed.....you would do anything to prove TR has made Probatoon 'better' lol!!!

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    1. I couldn't take credit for the work of this great man

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  12. things are going well in our crc (hides from the firing down) honestly have more time to see people and less time chained to the pc

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    1. Can I ask what CRC your in? Like I've said, it's good to read it's not all doom and gloom in the CRC like others are trying to make us believe.

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  13. And it's a Sodexo CRC might I add

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    1. Anon 21:43, which Sodexo CRC?

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    2. Not Essex, I can tell you that for nothing. Essex CRC is hell on earth where those who have to stay envy those who have gone

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    3. Response to Anon 13:13

      On the very last day the Offender Rehabilitation Bill was before Parliament, in February 2014 I lobbied Priti Patel - Witham MP at House of Commons.

      She told me that morning she had spoken to the Essex CEO and top bods in Essex Police and Essex County Council - who she said had assured her it was safe to go ahead in Essex, She refused to listen to me try to explain the implications of splitting probation work between two agencies - walked away from me waving her arm saying - it will happen - I think she believed it was ok and that I was just an old out of date fool who did not understand modern organisations.

      I also said - that Essex had it a bit easier than other places because it was an organisation dividing into two, unlike most others which were individual Trusts dividing into two and then in every situation CRCs & I guess also NPS areas - then amalgamating with another organisation as well. She told me she was only concerned about Essex - not so now - she is a Government Minister who last year was given a "middle-ranking ministerial position of exchequer secretary dealing with tax policy." and since the GE has been promoted to "Minister of State for Employment, and since 11 May 2015, (sits) in the cabinet"

      I, of course had been part of the mess that, Greater London had got into in 2001 when it had united 5 separate Probation Services or even going back to 1974 when I was a student in Liverpool and saw some difficulties merging Liverpool, South West Lancs and other Probation areas from 'over the Mersey' into one unit.

      On those occasions they were not also coping with new sentencing and privatisation - it was a disaster anyone BUT a fool could see was certain, which is why I am so angry at the Senior Officers in those Pbn Trusts who agreed to lead the shambles rather than just resigning and going back to being main grade officers if they were not willing to leave probation.

      We also did not protest loudly enough and were let down by Parliament which is supposed to make Government answer to it and the media - who saw no benefits in examining it in detail even when it was drawn to their attention, as I did with several reporters.

      I guess now - probation folk need to look after their own interests but to always unite with colleagues with similar interests.

      I commiserate.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/priti-patel-mp-who-is-the-new-treasury-minister-who-supports-death-penalty-and-rejects-plain-packaging-for-cigarettes-9608096.html

      Sadly we are governed largely by people with little concern about how things are for ordinary folk as long as they do not riot or cause them public embarrassment that cannot be withstood politically and in the media

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  14. If we are made redundant would we be able to claim unfair dismissal. I was sifted into crc against my will. Post split po jobs were advertised in nps, so if the sift had been done correctly I would not be facing redundancy. At least not at the moment.

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    1. Not sure, you'd have to ask a lawyer, or a Union rep about possibility of any claim. But, if you accept a Severance offer, definitely NOT.

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    2. NOt a hope the position was union agreed and the pass over time limit has gone well over as noted in the transfer arrangements . Also I am guessing you did not appeal and argue at transfer. IT opened other debate though on Suing NAPO there is some bad advice over the term of this. I recall Mr Rendon insisting on all staff grievances. Did not have a clue what he was on about. When all the grievances got jammed up and waived off as the management would not entertain them MR Rendon wades back in with a napo advice sheet saying if you still feel strongly about your grievance. A far cry from a class action. There are a good few other issues in the way it has been managed and we pay the price with our jobs someone will pursue the union.

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    3. Yes I did appeal and took out a grievance which was left to lie on file. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Why was the membership not asked about the 7 months protection. TR was a massive undertaking and we should have been offered more protection. I feel angry with the union officials that made these decisions without proper consultation although I recognise that there was a real apathy to fight TR amongst the workforce.

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  15. Lets not be gloomy. 24 years ago I qualified as a probation officer (& social worker at that time), having spent two years funding myself through university, with Home Office sponsorship & several jobs (shiftwork in a probation hostel, homeless shelter, Safeway shelf stacking, labourer for a local builder). Prior to that I spent 3 years in various roles gaining relevant experience & knowledge in order to qualify for the DipSW course. I had a young family, hardly saw the children as they grew up during those years - & endured a painful divorce as a direct result of selfishly focusing on developing a career rather than spending time & money on those close to me. Some bridges have since been repaired.

    I'd like to think I've been a diligent, hopefully fair & effective PO. I've experienced some amazing things; as well as some terrible things. I've met some amazing & some terrible people.

    But hey, nothing as life changing as TR. In the space of 18 months its taken me from the dizzy heights of an experienced, respected professional in a low-key but fascinating career to becoming 1 of 600 unemployed, unwanted, expensive cast-offs who even the trades unions & professional associations don't give a fig about.

    So not only has the UK government sanctioned throwIng theIr nurtured babies out with the bathwater, but they've brought in hired help to do it for them. They have charged 21 unknown entities £1 each for the privilege of joining in, then handed over more than £60M of public money - plus any publicly owned assets that were lying about.

    But hey, lets not be gloomy. There's plenty to celebrate... isn't there?

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    1. Anon 22:07. Yes let's not be gloomy. In a slightly contrasting journey to yours, a few decades or so ago I was released from a juvenile detention centre. Overcoming the difficulties this entailed and working in numerous jobs ranging from cleaner to shelf stacker, I graduated from university as a postgraduate. Then i chose to go into rehabilitation work and after working with a few organisations I joined probation and was amongst the early TPO's to quality as a probation officer.

      Fast forward not far off two decades or so and here I am working in this utter mess of what probation's become. It was bad enough enduring the sometimes appalling and egotistical management and appalling local policies under probation trusts. And I never had any faith in governments or unions either.

      I won't say which side of the NPS/CRC divide in currently on but the choice does not bode well on either. We've all been on tender hooks from before TR and staff morale has consistently found new lows. The NPS is a place where we're are dictated to with misplaced policies, jobsworth managers and directors, constant threat of dismissal for standing up for ourselves and now imminent cuts that will lead to job losses. The CRC's are badly managed shadows of probation where we're no longer called probation officers and lied to by more jobsworth managers in order to keep the ship afloat until we're made redundant without due recompense.

      Same as you, I've had great experiences in probation, have had a lot of good colleagues, managers included, and have had loads of opportunities and have a great cv to boot. My life has changed immensely and like many I learnt the hard way how to reduce the work stress and the importance of shutting off when the work day ends and spending time with the ever growing family. Like many I thought the past sacrifices were worth it as I'd found my life's calling. Now I'm back to an uncertain future and at a time I've got more bills and responsibilities then I can calculate, and back to worrying about applying for probably new lines of work with a juvenile criminal record.

      I've a lot done good work, given 200% and I have made a change in the lives of many others and seen a lot of people change for the better. I've helped countless colleagues in becoming outstanding probation officers. I can also whip out a PSR, Oasys or parole report in no time at all, chair a meeting, stand up in court, until ambition in the wayward, cheer up those fallen into the worst of circumstances, support a victimised person, even give a theoretical kick up the backside to those needing it, though I doubt how useful a skill this all is in the real world. I can't knock probation for the opportunity it gave me, but I also know I'm also just a statistic waiting for the end in an organisation and profession I don't really recognise any more.

      TR, Sodexo, CRC, NPS, Napo, Grayling, Gove - it's all a crock of shite!!!

      So yes I try not to be gloomy, I'm trying not to encourage gloomy to colleagues whom are rightfully gloomy, but there's just not much to celebrate within work right now.

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  16. Sodexo are shareholders for 6 of the 21 companies & are shedding about 600 jobs. So are we to expect job losses across the CRCs in excess of 2,000? I would guess 2,500 won't be far off the final figure. And the average salary will have dropped by some £5k at least.
    ? Does that change anyone's perception of the need to focus on the shitstorm that Sodexo are stirring, and its implications? Or of the anger being directed at the unions (plural) who seem to be pleased with their capitulation into negotiating about the "offer"?

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  17. Agree, likely to be over two thousand staff cut at the end of the day. Key questions - WHEN were these staffing numbers agreed, and by WHO - the government, or the bidders? At what point in the process were the staff cuts financially accounted for - before the bids were won, or after? Someone must know this information, who can say? Please tell. A bidder (successful, or failed) maybe can, or someone from MOJ? Unions - do you know? Anyone?
    I realise it doesn't help us, the employees - either those losing their jobs, or the folk left to work in the new world with too few resources/people. Or indeed the offenders who are undoubtedly going to be massively impacted by the new operating models.
    But in the interests of transparency, I think we'd all like to know - when; who; and at what point? One simple sentence can answer all these key questions.

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    1. All agreed by the point of submitting winning bids. Sodexo have already admitted as much when they spoke of having planned to lose staff through compulsory redundancies 7 months after share sale (statement issued Apr 2015); as have MoJ when they speak of having budgetted for covering loss of resources (staff redundancy) from 'Modernisation Fund'. Selous said as much pre-share sale. Previous posts have highlighted these admissions in Hansard, in press releases, the weasel words & the timelines, I find it astonishing there's next to no interest in the media, or that the Unions haven't capitalised on the discrepancies, anomalies & lies.

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    2. so do all the members and the pr gap is because napo have an expert who sees this as small fry not worth her effort.

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    3. It makes no difference now but one thing that gets me is that probation chiefs, senior managers, SPO's, managers and Napo all knew this was going to happen. They have their senior management meetings where advance projections and decisions are shared, which is then shared in management meetings, which what affects the staff is also shared with unions. At the last minute they tell us, when it's too late, and when senior managers and favourites managers already had their EVR in the bag. We all know this is why chiefs and senior managers all took EVR and early retirement prior to TR implementation 2014. Some of these charlatans probably even worked on the Sodexo TR bid too while they awaited their golden handshakes, consultancy jobs and OBE's.

      It is what it is now. Can Napo advise on the legal aspects of current entitlement for "serverence" and voluntary/compulsory "redundancy" based on the current situation, and the implications of taking either now or holding out.

      I recall learning somewhere that what's being offered may not actually be received by all applicants, that those left would like fall under the compulsory redundancy axe, and that Sodexo would still have the "restructuring" option in its back pocket which could be used to end job roles fullstop - do not pass go, do not collect £200.

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  18. Another SUBJECT: -

    from the BBC -

    " Court of Appeal overturns prison absconder policy ruling"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33635956

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