I'm only guessing, but maybe the reason might be connected to this sort of thing:-
Then they judge anyone still on the Frontline for more than 5 years as a loser and let you know if you dare challenge them that they are one big club and you in your lowly PO role are definitely not in it! Grievances are a joke and will always side with management and it doesn't matter how many years experience you have there are SPO's who will infantilise you and treat you like a pquip who doesn't know s**t from mud when you're in your fifties! A surgeon can have a reputation and carry it around with him/her for decades wherever they go but if you are an excellent PO for decades, doing overtime, hitting all targets, doing amazing intervention work but then change office your reputation doesn't follow you in Probation.
If your health changes, your circumstances change and you have kids now or just can't work like you did in your twenties you are deemed rubbish and treated like rubbish and the service will try and mange you out! No one knows or gives a s**t about all the years you broke your back for the service. That's why I think all these people doing overtime and going the extra mile are idiots. If you want to do it to help a service user then do it but don't do it for the service because they really don't give a crap and none of it means anything to them! Your brilliant reputation can be shot to s**t at the drop of a hat or the change of a location/office!
*****
16:42 The response of a bitter jaded PO who has been knocked back for promotion. Try upskilling, move job role if it's that bad. It's not a good look being bitter and blaming others for your shortfalls.
*****
16:42 you are part of the problem and not the solution. You clearly don’t have any empathy or even listening skills. That was actually a cry for help from a colleague who feels very trapped due to their age and no viable alternatives for alternative employment options due to their age. They have given their all as they passionately believed they could and did make a difference to their service users. I have no doubt they are being pushed out due to them challenging what is happening to what was once a noble profession. Your tenure might seem secure at the moment, and you have a dismissive and callous attitude, but believe me, no matter how well you do your role and have brilliant success stories and have helped your service users turn around their lives and follow a crime free life (which is after all our objective), one day you will become enlightened and challenge the status quo. You will find yourself marginalised and on the outside and seen as a trouble maker and will start questioning your mere existence within your career.
*****
16:42 clearly has a lot to learn. With years of experience will inevitable come failing health and the change of attitudes of others is remarkable. Not at all a caring organisation, easily and quickly replaced.
*****
11:44 is closer to the new truth than many care to admit, the loss of experience has been replaced not by critical thinkers or those who challenge but by those promoted because they needed to get out of the front line and it is amazing how many SPOs suddenly become experts in their field………there are many hard working men and women who stay as POs as that is how you hone your skills, usually to a very high level………11:44 probably remembers when probation was a hive of critical thinking, innovation and you were able to challenge those further up the ladder………now they are so unsure in their roles they wouldn’t let you say boo to a goose before threatening you with disciplinary…………so to 11:44, continue to be that turbulent priest that they fear so much………..
*****
11:44 I don’t even think you need to change office to be treated like that! The first commenter is correct though, there’s many other jobs out there that will value, respect and pay you better! [above] is correct too, and this has been the direction for some years.
*****
Plenty of empathy here. I'm realistic, it's a poisonous job, but I don't sit around complaining or moan about managers. I'll do another couple of years and move on. The system is messed up, stop with the pathetic, my manager is mean to me. It's a job, don't like it? Go elsewhere, it is that simple.
*****
00:35 Hmmm, rather than run away & let the bullies remain active, wouldn't it be more satisfactory if:
I agree with much of what 11:44 has said, and I find the response at 16:42 rather telling. Suggesting that someone who expresses disillusionment should simply upskill, seek promotion or leave rather misses the point. Why should remaining on the frontline, developing expertise and becoming an exceptionally skilled PO be regarded as a failure to progress?
Not everyone aspires to management. Nor should they have to. There is enormous professional value in someone who has spent years developing the judgement, confidence and experience needed to undertake complex probation work well. Yet we seem to operate within a culture where progression is too often synonymous with moving upwards and away from the very work the organisation exists to deliver.
Experience isn’t simply a matter of years served, and there are undoubtedly excellent managers who have progressed relatively quickly. But equally, appointment to a more senior position doesn’t automatically confer the depth of knowledge, judgement or credibility that comes through sustained practice. Professional leadership should recognise and draw upon that experience, not feel threatened by it.
What particularly resonates with me is the apparent fragility of professional reputation. How can someone spend years demonstrating commitment, competence and sound judgement, yet find that their credibility is seemingly reset by a change of management, office or personal circumstances?
And why should a PP’s value be measured by their willingness or ability to work beyond their contracted hours? People get older, acquire caring responsibilities, experience ill health or simply reach a point where they can no longer sacrifice their personal lives to compensate for organisational demands. None of that diminishes their professional expertise.
The response suggesting people should just leave if they’re unhappy is equally troubling. Of course, individuals can choose to move on. But if the answer to experienced staff expressing legitimate concerns is simply to encourage their departure, how does that help a service already struggling with retention and the loss of institutional knowledge?
The reference at 00:35 to workplace culture is important too. A healthy professional organisation should be able to accommodate challenge, disagreement and critical thinking without automatically interpreting them as negativity or disloyalty. And this brings us rather neatly back to Martin Jones and the future of probation being local.
Local delivery is important, but structures alone won’t restore the profession. That requires leadership which values experience, encourages constructive challenge, understands frontline realities and recognises that professional expertise is not confined to those occupying management positions.
We talk a great deal about retaining staff, developing capability and improving public protection. Yet how much attention do we give to retaining the knowledge, judgement and experience of those who have chosen to remain closest to the work? Perhaps one of probation’s greatest problems is that we’ve become much better at recognising career progression than professional mastery. And those are not the same thing.
*****
16:42 The response of a bitter jaded PO who has been knocked back for promotion. Try upskilling, move job role if it's that bad. It's not a good look being bitter and blaming others for your shortfalls.
*****
16:42 you are part of the problem and not the solution. You clearly don’t have any empathy or even listening skills. That was actually a cry for help from a colleague who feels very trapped due to their age and no viable alternatives for alternative employment options due to their age. They have given their all as they passionately believed they could and did make a difference to their service users. I have no doubt they are being pushed out due to them challenging what is happening to what was once a noble profession. Your tenure might seem secure at the moment, and you have a dismissive and callous attitude, but believe me, no matter how well you do your role and have brilliant success stories and have helped your service users turn around their lives and follow a crime free life (which is after all our objective), one day you will become enlightened and challenge the status quo. You will find yourself marginalised and on the outside and seen as a trouble maker and will start questioning your mere existence within your career.
*****
16:42 clearly has a lot to learn. With years of experience will inevitable come failing health and the change of attitudes of others is remarkable. Not at all a caring organisation, easily and quickly replaced.
*****
11:44 is closer to the new truth than many care to admit, the loss of experience has been replaced not by critical thinkers or those who challenge but by those promoted because they needed to get out of the front line and it is amazing how many SPOs suddenly become experts in their field………there are many hard working men and women who stay as POs as that is how you hone your skills, usually to a very high level………11:44 probably remembers when probation was a hive of critical thinking, innovation and you were able to challenge those further up the ladder………now they are so unsure in their roles they wouldn’t let you say boo to a goose before threatening you with disciplinary…………so to 11:44, continue to be that turbulent priest that they fear so much………..
*****
11:44 I don’t even think you need to change office to be treated like that! The first commenter is correct though, there’s many other jobs out there that will value, respect and pay you better! [above] is correct too, and this has been the direction for some years.
*****
Plenty of empathy here. I'm realistic, it's a poisonous job, but I don't sit around complaining or moan about managers. I'll do another couple of years and move on. The system is messed up, stop with the pathetic, my manager is mean to me. It's a job, don't like it? Go elsewhere, it is that simple.
*****
00:35 Hmmm, rather than run away & let the bullies remain active, wouldn't it be more satisfactory if:
* the unions were strong enough to properly & robustly support their membersHow much more productive might that be, HMPPS?
* employers were decent enough not to encourage/tolerate bullying &/or other abusive practices, and
* that the bullies get dealt with such that the focus of the employee becomes doing 'the job'.
* Far fewer lost days to sickness/stress*****
* Hours & hours of staff time saved because there are far fewer tribunals, complaints or investigations
* A considerably happier & positive workplace
* A far more productive workforce
I agree with much of what 11:44 has said, and I find the response at 16:42 rather telling. Suggesting that someone who expresses disillusionment should simply upskill, seek promotion or leave rather misses the point. Why should remaining on the frontline, developing expertise and becoming an exceptionally skilled PO be regarded as a failure to progress?
Not everyone aspires to management. Nor should they have to. There is enormous professional value in someone who has spent years developing the judgement, confidence and experience needed to undertake complex probation work well. Yet we seem to operate within a culture where progression is too often synonymous with moving upwards and away from the very work the organisation exists to deliver.
Experience isn’t simply a matter of years served, and there are undoubtedly excellent managers who have progressed relatively quickly. But equally, appointment to a more senior position doesn’t automatically confer the depth of knowledge, judgement or credibility that comes through sustained practice. Professional leadership should recognise and draw upon that experience, not feel threatened by it.
What particularly resonates with me is the apparent fragility of professional reputation. How can someone spend years demonstrating commitment, competence and sound judgement, yet find that their credibility is seemingly reset by a change of management, office or personal circumstances?
And why should a PP’s value be measured by their willingness or ability to work beyond their contracted hours? People get older, acquire caring responsibilities, experience ill health or simply reach a point where they can no longer sacrifice their personal lives to compensate for organisational demands. None of that diminishes their professional expertise.
The response suggesting people should just leave if they’re unhappy is equally troubling. Of course, individuals can choose to move on. But if the answer to experienced staff expressing legitimate concerns is simply to encourage their departure, how does that help a service already struggling with retention and the loss of institutional knowledge?
The reference at 00:35 to workplace culture is important too. A healthy professional organisation should be able to accommodate challenge, disagreement and critical thinking without automatically interpreting them as negativity or disloyalty. And this brings us rather neatly back to Martin Jones and the future of probation being local.
Local delivery is important, but structures alone won’t restore the profession. That requires leadership which values experience, encourages constructive challenge, understands frontline realities and recognises that professional expertise is not confined to those occupying management positions.
We talk a great deal about retaining staff, developing capability and improving public protection. Yet how much attention do we give to retaining the knowledge, judgement and experience of those who have chosen to remain closest to the work? Perhaps one of probation’s greatest problems is that we’ve become much better at recognising career progression than professional mastery. And those are not the same thing.
Yet all at Ivory Towers tell us that everything in the garden is rosy, except, we no it ain’t !
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