Wednesday, 1 February 2017

SFO Lessons to Learn 3

Here we have Carl Eve of the Plymouth Herald covering the latest news on the Tanis Bhandari case:-

'Tanis would still be alive today if system had not failed him'

Tanis Bhandari would still be alive today had there not been shocking failings in the way his killer was monitored, according to one Plymouth councillor. Philippa Davey launched an impassioned speech on the case at Monday's Plymouth City Council meeting, slamming the privatisation of the probation service which was supposed to be monitoring Donald Pemberton at the time he and Ryan Williams murdered Plymouth builder Tanis in Tamerton Foliot on New Year's Day 2015.

And she praised Tanis' family and The Herald for their work in exposing the errors, which are now due to be scrutinised in Parliament. Cllr Davey said: "A licence that stated he (Pemberton) had to be well behaved and not commit any offence. A breach of this licence could result in a recall to prison."

"Thanks to the perseverance of Tanis's family and the Plymouth Herald reporter Carl Eve, serious failings in the criminal justice system have been revealed. Failings that should not have happened, could have been avoided and have still not been resolved. Failings that pose a risk to the public in Plymouth and across the UK. It is a great shame that our MPs have failed to act immediately and it has taken a journalist, a grieving family and councillors to ensure action is taken to protect our residents."

Cllr Davey said Tanis' family had also been badly let down by the Ministry of Justice, Witness Care and Working Links Community Rehabilitation Company. She said: "The failure to advise them of their rights to the 'victim summary report' of the Serious Further Offence Review is just the start of a series of events which is, frankly, an insult to a grieving family seeking transparency and truth. The review of Working Links supervision of Pemberton was completed by another Working Links manager in the Bristol, Avon, Somerset and Gloucestershire area. A private company, investigating itself – what could go wrong?"

"Well, let me tell you. The family were not made aware of their rights to see the victim summary report, Pemberton had been arrested on December 15th and there was CCTV showing him brandishing meat cleavers in public. On December 22nd, a week later, the probation officer received a report from Pemberton's mental health worker, on the 23rd she spoke to the mental health worker and learned of his arrest and that he had been bailed, she prepared a summons to court which would be heard on January 16th regarding the breach of licence."

"The report stated that although the probation officer (PO) was newly appointed to the role they had worked for several years in probation in another role. This is where the facts end and the glaring errors and omissions start. Working Links will not provide the evidence of the PO's experience, they have confirmed they did not receive the expected training, training that Working Links themselves expect staff to complete."

"Worse, there is no formal record of any risk assessment or risk management plan, no evidence of inter agency working, including information sharing with the police public protection unit and all of this should have been good working practice. "A deterioration in Pemberton's state of mental health should have rung alarm bells, for both his safety and that of the public."

"A risk assessment should have been completed on his deteriorating mental health and his behaviour on the night of the 15th December. His risk was rising, his behaviour was escalating and he could have been recalled, subject to curfew or electronic tag and Tanis's murder may have been prevented. Pemberton could have received the treatment he needed.

"But worse was to come. Tanis's family were contacted by Devon and Cornwall Police and received a detailed report which revealed a worrying gap in the computer systems police rely on, not just in Devon and Cornwall, but across the whole of England and Wales.

"Pemberton was released from Portland YOI [Young Offenders Institution] and no one had sent a copy of his licence to be entered on the Police National Computer. Apparently only cases serious enough for MAPPA [Multi Agency Public Protection Arrangements], POP [Prolific Offenders Project] offenders or those on HDC [Home Detention Curfew] go automatically to the Bureau. The police could not access a copy of Pemberton's licence."

"The report also revealed the probation officer has been contacted by Pemberton's doctor on November 21 who had seen Pemberton 'who said he was paranoid and afraid of his father and was now keeping an axe under his bed'. The supervising officer called police as she was advised action under Section 136 of the Mental Health Act was required. After calling both 101 and 999 she was told he wasn't currently a risk."

"The report notes how inexperienced the officer was and that she had never been informed by the custody unit of anyone on supervision being arrested, usually finding out from CPS when they went to court. Although the report does not make a causal link between the failures and Tanis's murder it does note that if the licence had been available it is likely he would have remained in custody and been recalled to prison. He would not have been at liberty and Tanis could still be alive today."

"Another shocking revelation was that Devon and Cornwall Police computer system, does not extract a suspect's Custody History screen, meaning custody officers 'would not see any licence details held on a prisoner in custody as the data would not be available via the interface'. The same system is used by all forces so affects every member of the public. This should be rectified immediately as it is the custody officer who will make a decision on release."

"Finally, and again terrifyingly, affecting the whole of the UK, the failure to record all licence conditions on the PNC has meant that in a dip sample four out of 11 offenders have no licence recorded on PNC. That included sex offenders but could include a wide range of offenders. The police's internal report concluded there was 'every chance incidents similar to this case will recur' if no changes were made to current processes. This is where we have to act and to ask our MP's to act, now."

"In June 2014 you heard NAPO and other experts warn that the privatisation of probation would cause fragmentation of services, lead to unqualified and inexperienced staff supervising complex and risky offenders, put inter agency working at risk and would not improve re offending rates and would put the public at risk. The recent inspections of CRC's in London, Durham and Stoke show clearly that the public is at greater risk, offending has not reduced and targets are being missed. Working Links are yet to have an inspection but trying to shed hundreds of jobs, wanting to change their operational model which will dumb down the PO role, having staff off sick, stressed and demotivated does not bode well."

Cllr Davey urged members to vote for her motion, tabled on January 23, regarding concerns over the privatisation of the Probation Service and the findings of the Serious Further Offence review and the police's internal report, and to 'heed the warnings from 2014 and the two investigations into what could have been an avoidable loss of life'.

She said: "To ensure Tanis's family receive the truth they are entitled to and the public who we represent are protected from harm wherever possible. We have a duty and the ability to make sure that Safer Plymouth really does make Plymouth Safer and that all of our partners are doing all they can to achieve this. We can ensure this happens. It is in our power."

Her voice was joined by Labour's Southway ward councillor Jonny Morris who said: "It's important that the council publicly recognises the dignity and determination with which Tanis' family have pursued their cause. While their determination faced with such horrific events might be somewhat expected, their dignity goes beyond what could be expected."

Conservative Budshead ward councillor, Dave Downie, also spoke out in support of the motion. He said: "It's obvious there have been a series of systemic errors on a national level which have had tragic consequences locally. I am more than happy to support this motion."

The motion was voted through unanimously by council members.

As he promised earlier this year, Plymouth Moor View MP Johnny Mercer has raised the concerns posed by the police investigation into the death of Tanis Bhandari in a written question to Elizabeth Truss MP, Secretary of State for Justice.

On January 27 he asked: "What assessment she has made of the implications for her policies of the findings of the Devon and Cornwall Police inquiry into the murder of Tanis Bhandari that omissions in the recording of license conditions on the Police National Computer are likely to recur."

Mr Mercer's office said they expect an answer from the Justice Minister within the next few days. A spokesman for the MP said: "Johnny and his office continue to work with the family of Tanis Bhandari for their best outcome.

"He will continue to work with them to seek the publication of the Serious Further Offence Review, pending which he will seek a meeting the Minister responsible for probation with representatives of Tanis' family. The primary focus for Johnny in this is to ensure that the family of Tanis Bhandari receive the answers they are seeking, as it would be for any of his constituents. We thank Plymouth City Council for their assistance after Johnny raised this as a question in the House last week. Should they wish to get in touch regarding this case, they can do so via his office, the contact details of which are widely available."


  1. TR has created a ticking time bomb nationwide I work in the NPS and the failings are appalling due to the constant disruption it's only s matter of time before the next victim It's soul destroying working in this atmosphere

  2. Probation Officer1 February 2017 at 09:23

    On this information alone I do not think the Probation Officer should be blamed. The focus should be on the organisation rather than the individual. Condolences to the family of the deceased. The reality is we are paid to see offenders for 30 mins or less every week, fortnight or month. Our training has been long removed from social work, the degree element slowly eroded, time for reflection and learning replaced with high caseloads, bad pay, deteriorating terms and conditions, understaffing, no resources, etc, etc.

    "she prepared a summons to court which would be heard on January 16th regarding the breach of licence."

    Good work. Some would have waited until charged or convicted.

    "the probation officer (PO) was newly appointed to the role"

    As many are these days. Qualified means qualified.

    "no evidence of inter agency working, including information sharing with the police public protection unit"

    But there was liaison with mental health, a breach was completed and the police were aware of the arrest. Good work.

    "A risk assessment should have been completed on his deteriorating mental health and his behaviour on the night of the 15th December."

    No, because probation officers do not work night shifts nor are they paid overtime. A breach was completed the following day which would have outlined risks, which makes it a risk assessment.

    "Pemberton was released from Portland YOI [Young Offenders Institution] and no one had sent a copy of his licence to be entered on the Police National Computer."

    The police could easily work out from his PNC that he was on licence.

    "The supervising officer called police as she was advised action under Section 136 of the Mental Health Act was required. "

    Good work by the Probation Officer.

    "The report notes how inexperienced the officer was and that she had never been informed by the custody unit of anyone on supervision being arrested, usually finding out from CPS"

    Stop blaming the probation officer If the police do not tell us then how else would we find out!

    "it does note that if the licence had been available it is likely he would have remained in custody and been recalled to prison."

    I think not. His PNC would have shown he was recently sentenced and therefore easy to work out he was recently released.

    "In June 2014 you heard NAPO and other experts warn that the privatisation of probation would cause fragmentation of services, lead to unqualified and inexperienced staff supervising complex and risky offenders"

    Very true. But this probation officer did their job, and a fairly good one too. New or inexperienced does not necessarily mean incompetent. It seems to me the Probation Officer did the best they could in the current climate of probation privatisation and working for Working Links, a historically bad organisation.

    1. Totally agree. Despite the chaos created by TR, this officer is on the ball and pro-active. A SUMMONS was issued and court date set. Being a YOI Licence this person could NOT have been immediately recalled in the same way as adults on license. If I am wrong about that please let me know. The error here is with police releasing an individual presenting as a risk. Evidence available. Why not charged and remanded? For me, that's the unanswered question. If anything, the only person doing anything of any value here was the case manager.

    2. Totally agree. Police could have easily remanded. They didn't, but no fault on them either. The licence was breached immediately and case summoned to court. In theory a youth licence can be recalled for risk escalation (used to be the case) but I've never seen it happen, and it was unlikely in this case as the police released him. This should raise eyebrows that prisoners serving under 12 months are released on similar licences which are difficult to act on in these types of cases. Another problem with the Offender Rehabilitation Act 2014. As usual everyone wants to hang the Probation Officer who did a really good job.

    3. Dear Probation Officer,
      In fairness to the councillor, she was summarising - under a time limit - this rather long article: and the police report. I hope both assist you. They show the police accept their officers didn't even look at the licence part of the PNC anyway; the mental health nurse who checked over Pemberton passed key information it to the Insight team who contacted the probation office - but only eight days after arrest. It's clear that if this had not been done probation would not have known of his arrest or the circumstances. But however it is looked at, whether one claims individual failings, group failings, systemic failings - I don't think anyone can argue in this particular case that there weren't holes in the system which could be filled in. Worse still, even the detective who examined the circumstances has found that the matters which led to this situation could "recur" if those holes were not filled - and not just in Plymouth, but across the country. As I said on this page a year ago, I'm not in the business of hunting a witch - but I *am* in the business of shouting long and hard until the hole identified by better folk than me is properly filled. The hole(s) is/are the issue. Should not those in positions of influence, knowledge and power do their utmost fix those problems without leaving a trail of disillusioned and under presser probation and police staff in their wake? If junior staff suffer because of this case, if they are scapegoated, I would be equally outraged and would write an article highlighting this unfair treatment - but I think the rush to defend one's own colleague, or a Government rushing to protect its new improved process, may mean that any failings get glossed over and not fixed. I doubt any probation officer or police officer would ever want that. And having spoken to them, I doubt Tanis' family would either...

    4. In the Hanson and White, Anthony Rice and Sonnex cases, the Probation Inspectorate carried out independent reviews.

      In this case you have a private company investigating itself which undermines natural justice. This present case has wide ramifications that involves the police, prisons, mental health and probation; there are inter-agency protocols that should be impartially assessed. This tragedy was preventable and until there is an independent inquiry and clear recommendations for future practice, the risks of further tragic outcomes will remain.

    5. Well done and thank you Carl Eve - I hope other local reporters learn from how you have reported and do likewise

    6. Hmm, I'm not sure about Carl Eve's slant, not that it matters. As expected from Working Links CRC, but I do credit the probation worker for prompt action. Not bad for a Newly appointed Probation Service Officer which is different from a qualified Probation Officer. This grade of staff fill the CRC's as they're cheaper and are now being appointed to the NPS to supervise serious violent and sex offenders. The article outlines findings about PSO training and suitable cases for a PSO. This is a bit optimistic when PSO training is very basic and PSO's are generally inexperienced, paid less because they are unqualified and they are expected to take on a variety of cases immediately, particularly in CRC's where all offenders are low - medium risk. The problem is structural and not the fault of the individual probation worker. The bottom line is that this poor Probation Service Officer breached the offender immediately after being informed of a further offence, and previously tried to have him sectioned.

    7. Whilst I agree with some of your points PO Officer I do think an experience officer may have acted differently Managers forget that a good understanding of risk escalation is needed when managing cases Tgey seem to think now anyone can be a PO I had a similar case and prepared the YOI breach and took it into Court that day to make sure action was taken a warrant issued in my case which may or may not have been acted on by the police in time in the SFO case? However I do not consider the OM to be at fault

    8. The newly appointed PSOs in my NPS office are being allocated the most inappropriate cases mainly because there's none else to take them They've had little or no training and some of them are so stressed with the worry they are going home and crying! We are trying to support them but no time really

    9. Same in my office sadly. Managers also at risk as they have to decide to give cases to PSO's on competence. Supposedly. However, they are then being told they MUST give PSO staff some cases to ease the presurre on PO's, or else. The PSO's have had little training at all and they are supervising medium risk cases that have just only reduced to medium. Many were high risk only a short time ago. Whilst they are capable individuals generally and will make good PSO's. It does concern me if something goes wrong.We rarely have time or the inclination to support them. And we will not train them either to be fair. SFO's are now far from the norm. Admin all got bumped up to act up PSO's as well which left us with temps who had no idea what they were doing as no-one left to train them. Breaches and recalls falling down and collapsing as a consequence.I do know of one death that may have been avoided were the Courts to jail the SU on the second breach. A breach has become pointless and meaningless to the Courts and SU's also. It's the whole CJS that needs a shake really. Communication between agencies is poor as all services in a similar sorry state.This sad story, not the first and it will not be the last.

    10. And I also feel the PO was not to blame. A victim of circumstances. Many others will suffer the same fate.I would want answers if I was the family however. Ask Liz Truss and her incompetent clueless cronies.

    11. I consider myself to be an experienced officer. I tried to get the police to check an address because a social worker had information that a high risk dv perpetrator was living at his victims home. First I was told that it wasn't a police matter and I needed to be making a referral to social services (already did 3 but that's a rant for another day). When advised that that was all in hand the respone was 'well what are they doing about it?'. When pushed I was told 'we can't do anything because he's not bailed to that address'. After explaining 3 times what a licence is she told me that it couldn't be true because there was nothing in pnc to say he was on licence. When I advised that we had sent a copy to then on the day of release she said pnc didn't even record that he had been sentenced. But then magically found a copy of the licence that I sent them. She eventually said she'd send someone to check if they were in the area and agreed to let me know the outcome. That was a week ago. Guess what. They didnt send anyone. Inexperienced or not, that PO acted appropriately and is not responsible for other agencies not acting on information.

    12. I recall such frustrating exchanges throughout my career 1975-2003 and more frustratingly there being no ready vehicle to get such issues resolved because the liaison between different agencies was so poor unless it was on a personal basis - so if I knew someone in the relevant police division and they were on duty I might get something resolved, other wise one was reduced to going up the probation management for it to be raised by a boss, in some far off meeting. Having tried that once or twice one just gave up.

      Then came MAPPA and we were in the room together - does that not offer some hope in such situations nowadays?

    13. Mappa process also gone pear shaped. Just an spo and a Di arguing over stuff then setting all actions for pos. No more shared agency views. No more supporting decision making. Plus hardly any level 2 or 3 these days. Most normal agency management after a number crunching paper exercise. Lost all meaning and respect.

  3. Working Links work programme was "worse than doing nothing". It's probation programme is a fate worse than death!

  4. Rather then commenting on the specifics of this case, I'd rather make a more general point.
    SFOs unfortunately will always happen,and any investigation into them will always seek to find an individual or organisation to blame. It's simply passing the buck and not attempting to solve the problem.
    But as long as those that are mentally ill are channeled into the CJS and aren't given appropriate treatment, the number of SFOs IMHO will just rise.
    I don't think it right that people with mental illnesses are supervised by probation just as offenders, and I don't think it fair to probation staff that they should be charged with supervision of those with mental health problems.
    Reduce the number of people being sent to prison because their offending stems from mental health problems, and I have no doubt that the number of SFOs will reduce as a consequence.


    1. There once was a drive to divert youths and those with mental illness out of the criminal justice system. This seems to have disappeared so it'd no wonder that prisons are bursting at the seams. Keeps police in their protected jobs so at least somebody is happy!


    1. "Private firm Mitie Care and Custody, in partnership with Cheshire and Greater Manchester Community Rehabilitation Company". The same Mitie that used to provide maintenance to probation and look at the state of those! If I had a pound for every time I heard/saw Mite workers travel a 50+ mile round trip to change a lightbulb, and couldn't complete the job because they brought the wrong bulb!

    2. VULNERABLE people already in the criminal justice system or in danger of breaking the law again will be helped by a new support service designed to stop re-offending.

      Suspects in custody, defendants appearing at court or offenders living in the community who have mental health issues, substance abuse problems or even social housing difficulties, will be assisted in a bid to stop them resorting to crime in the future.

      The new service, which begins today, has been made possible by Greater Manchester’s devolution deal and has been jointly commissioned by Greater Manchester’s interim mayor Police and Crime Commissioner Tony Lloyd and Greater Manchester Health and Social Care Partnership.

      It is a simplified and streamline replacement of the current system in which an arrestee may be seen by various people from different unco-ordinated services and they will have not only their health assessed but their wider life circumstances.

      Mr Lloyd said: “This service will provide a lifeline to thousands of vulnerable people, bringing police and health services together to address underlying issues of offending.

      “It’s a common sense approach, but one that will only be effective if everybody with a stake in the criminal justice system contributes to its success.”

      Dr Richard Preece, executive lead for quality at Greater Manchester Health and Social Care Partnership, said: “Devolution in Greater Manchester is providing the means and opportunities to do things differently.

      “Health and social care cannot be seen in isolation.

      “We must work together to improve care in custody.

      “By joining up our way of working, vulnerable individuals will be supported to access appropriate services and hopefully together we can reduce the chances of people reoffending.”

      Private firm Mitie Care and Custody, in partnership with Cheshire and Greater Manchester Community Rehabilitation Company and Five Boroughs Partnership NHS Foundation Trust, were chosen in October last year to deliver the integrated Police Custody Healthcare Service and a Liaison and Diversion Service.

      The three year contract worth £15 million is the first integrated service of its type inthe country.

      Every custody suite will have an embedded healthcare professional available around the clock for assessments.

      During the core hours of 7am to 5pm they will be joined by a so-called ‘health, liaison and diversion facilitator’ whose working hours will increase over the second and the third years of the contract.

      They will see a total of approximately 134,000 people who end up in police custody over the three years of the contract.

      This represents about seven out of every 10 adults arrested and every young person detained.

      Assessments will also take place in courts and anyone found with mental health issues, learning disabilities, substance misuse or other vulnerabilities will be supported with access to appropriate services whether it be concerning health, social care, education, training or housing.

      Seb Stewart, managing director at Care and Custody Health, said: “By bringing together a credible, forward-thinking partnership of organisations to deliver fully integrated, innovative services to the police, courts and communities of Greater Manchester, we can support positive outcomes for vulnerable individuals coming into the criminal justice system, and contribute to a reduction in re-offending.”

    3. It's still a maintenance company!

      Our history
      Mitie has always been different. Some would say unique.

      Mitie stands for Management Incentive Through Investment Equity and our ethos has always been to create opportunities for our people to succeed. This has helped us to build an environment where hard work and success are rewarded.

      The results are impressive. From a standing start, we now have revenues in excess of £2bn and we're one of only two FTSE 250 companies to have grown earnings per share for over 29 consecutive years, meaning impressive returns for shareholders too.

      When Mitie was smaller, most of our growth came from our unique model. We are still starting new businesses, but as we mature our markets are changing. Contracts are shifting from being small and procured locally to long-term regional or national contracts. Mitie is now a national strategic outsourcing and energy services business, working with customers to combine our services in multi-service or integrated facilities management packages.

      Today we work on large-scale national contracts for customers such as Rolls-Royce, Network Rail , and Vodafone as well as high profile contracts such as npower and the NHS Property Services .

      More than 29 years of success... and we've only just started...

  6. The report doesn't say recently qualified probation officer it says new to this role, surely that is very different??????????

    1. Correction.....Substitute PO with PSO. A PO was not providing supervision with Working Links. The PSO was clerical and not trained to do the job neither was the Manager who was also not a trained PSO or PO. Working Links have now removed 240 jobs and regrading staff removing the job of Probation Support officer to reduce pay and experience required to undertake the role. As of last week it was said all regrading has to take place by the 31st March 2017. So have lessons be learned?

    2. A "trained" pso doesn't mean much as pso training amounts to not much and is far from the 2 year university based on the job training po's get. For the record many po's and pso's train up from being admin and are usually amongst the best staff as know all parts of the job. As has been said already, the po/pso did a good job and acted appropriately. They discussed with manager, acted on information, called the police, completed a breach, I doubt an "experienced" person would have done as much or more. I get this all the time, people expecting us to have a crystal ball and magic fairy dust. We all agree probation training should not be dumbed down and privatisation has caused a dangerous mess. In this case it seems the other agencies are the ones needing to get their house in order.

    3. Is that right, Working Links crc have Managers who are not a trained PO? I've seen programme managers, training managers and even directors that are not qualified po's but never a senior probation officer that's not actually a qualified probation officer!!??

    4. 2 years training you used to get you mean. Now reduced and dumped down to !5 months. PSP training us crap. More like what we used to call briefings. Death by PowerPoint. Masquerading as training so they can then blame them when it goes tits up.

  7. "A spokesman for Working Links said Pemberton's [probation] management had not been linked to the crime committed and "processes were being followed to tackle the offender's behaviour".

  8. Off topic, but can't sleep and just spotted this, although horrific, may be an interesting watch on C4 at 7pm tonight, Thursday. It's bound to attract significant media attention because it's so shocking, and ask some uncomfortable questions of the establishment.

    1. When E. J. H. Nash, the evangelical cleric known as “Bash”, founded the 1930s summer camp movement that would bear his name, he pledged to take the “key boys from the key schools” and instil in Britain’s future leaders a burning Christian faith.

      But when young men from the nation’s elite schools - including the Archbishop of Canterbury - pitched their tents in the summers of the late 1970s, something altogether more sinister was afoot.

      Channel 4 News will on Thursday broadcast claims that John Smyth, a high-flying barrister who chaired the Iwerne Trust, the charity that oversaw the camps, used the gatherings to recruit a group of young men to a cult in which they were subjected to a series of brutal sado-masochistic assaults.

      What is more, Mr Smyth escaped justice after both the Iwerne Trust and Britain’s oldest public school failed to report the attacks to police.

      Mr Smyth, a QC, is accused of handing out beatings of up to 800 lashes to 22 young men over a four-year period in the late 1970s, after persuading them that it was part of a “ministry from God”.

      His alleged victims, some of whom were pupils at Winchester College, say they were beaten so hard on their bare bottoms that they had to wear adult nappies to allow the wounds to heal.

      Both the Iwerne Trust and Winchester College, were informed of the allegations in 1982, after one of the alleged victims attempted suicide.

      But despite a report commissioned by the Iwerne Trust concluding that the barrister had “conned men into accepting” the “horrific” beatings, neither the charity nor Winchester College reported the assaults to police, and Mr Smyth was instead allowed to move overseas.

    2. What do you expect from a country built on enslaving and colonising other nations. Many in positions of British power and responsibility today are from families and institutions directly linked to this recent past.

  9. It all keeps talking about the scrutiny of working links in the SFO investigation.... I can't help but feel a major bit is being overlooked. The contract holders didnt take over until February 2015..... this happened before they took over.
    TR is crap but stop scapegoating CRCs because it fits your agenda when this was prior to them taking over. This offence was massive at the time in the local area and it is correct to be scrutinised and for SFO investigation to happen and learning to be taken.
    I am not justifying what working links have done since coming in as it all sounds fairly shocking (if i was to believe everything I read on this blog...) but this happened before ANY of those changes had come in.