Government agree to RE-OPEN PAY TALKS
Napo’s Probation Negotiating Committee met yesterday to consider a pay offer that had received the personal endorsement of the new Lord Chancellor Shabana Mahmood. While the PNC noted that the offer does not wholly satisfy the terms of Napo’s current trade dispute on pay and workloads, it follows the joint unions’ campaign to re-open the three year pay award to give probation staff more pay now. The unions submitted a claim to get more pay back in 2023, which HMPPS rejected in April this year.
But following votes in the UNISON and Napo consultative ballots of members which showed strong support for consideration of industrial action, the change of government, the escalating prison overcrowding crisis and the embarrassment of probation pay falling further and further behind prison pay, HMPPS finally agreed to re-open the award and offer more money in this final year of the Multi Year Pay Deal MYPD to our members. Of course, It would have been better if the employer had done this much earlier, but their hands were tied by the previous Conservative government.
The HMPPS offer would not have happened without the unions’ campaign to re-open the pay talks over the last year and a half.
HMPPS OFFER
The offer which HMPPS made to the unions this week is for:
But following votes in the UNISON and Napo consultative ballots of members which showed strong support for consideration of industrial action, the change of government, the escalating prison overcrowding crisis and the embarrassment of probation pay falling further and further behind prison pay, HMPPS finally agreed to re-open the award and offer more money in this final year of the Multi Year Pay Deal MYPD to our members. Of course, It would have been better if the employer had done this much earlier, but their hands were tied by the previous Conservative government.
The HMPPS offer would not have happened without the unions’ campaign to re-open the pay talks over the last year and a half.
HMPPS OFFER
The offer which HMPPS made to the unions this week is for:
1. The pay rise for all staff which was due on 1 October 2024 to be brought forward to 1 April 2024. This will deliver much needed additional cash to staff 6 months earlier than set out in the current three year pay award. The back pay owing will be paid in a single lump sum as soon as possible. This money will be subject to tax and national insurance in the usual way. staff who have left the organisation since 1st April 2024 will be entitled to the pay rise back pay so we ask colleagues who may be in touch with them to tell them to write in to claim it.
2. The deletion of the lowest pay point in pay band 2. The unions have been battling for months to get HMPPS to treat pay band 2 staff fairly who were affected by the implementation of the national living wage in April 2024. The offer from HMPPS will delete the lowest pay point in pay band 2 and move all staff on this pay point to the next highest pay point of £23,250 (full time salary) backdated to 1 April 2024.
3. The temporary extension of premium overtime rates to pay bands 4, 5 & 6 until 31 March 2025. Currently, staff on pay bands 4, 5 & 6 are only entitled to time off in lieu or payment at plain time for any additional hours worked above contractual hours. The unions have been seeking the extension of premium overtime rates since the start of this year, so this is a welcome move. However, the Unions want to see this made permanent. The extension of premium overtime rates is undoubtedly linked to the demand which is coming Probation’s way from SDS40. There is very little likelihood of this demand having receded by 31 March 2025, so Napo will be arguing that these overtime rates will have to be extended again.
4. A temporary overtime bonus scheme. In addition to the extension of premium overtime pay to pay bands 4, 5 & 6, HMPPS has offered an overtime incentive scheme as follows:
2. The deletion of the lowest pay point in pay band 2. The unions have been battling for months to get HMPPS to treat pay band 2 staff fairly who were affected by the implementation of the national living wage in April 2024. The offer from HMPPS will delete the lowest pay point in pay band 2 and move all staff on this pay point to the next highest pay point of £23,250 (full time salary) backdated to 1 April 2024.
3. The temporary extension of premium overtime rates to pay bands 4, 5 & 6 until 31 March 2025. Currently, staff on pay bands 4, 5 & 6 are only entitled to time off in lieu or payment at plain time for any additional hours worked above contractual hours. The unions have been seeking the extension of premium overtime rates since the start of this year, so this is a welcome move. However, the Unions want to see this made permanent. The extension of premium overtime rates is undoubtedly linked to the demand which is coming Probation’s way from SDS40. There is very little likelihood of this demand having receded by 31 March 2025, so Napo will be arguing that these overtime rates will have to be extended again.
4. A temporary overtime bonus scheme. In addition to the extension of premium overtime pay to pay bands 4, 5 & 6, HMPPS has offered an overtime incentive scheme as follows:
a. £125 payable to staff after two weeks in which the employee has committed to work at least 5 hours per week over a two week period.
b. £250 payable to staff after four weeks in which the employee has committed to work at least 5 hours per week over a four week period.
Napo ACCEPTS the offer Napo’s PNC met on 1 August to consider the offer. The Committee agreed to accept the offer with the following reservations.
1. HMPPS to confirm when the lump sum back pay will actually be paid
2. HMPPS to set out what staff on each pay point in pay bands 2-6 can expect by way of lump sum backpay (gross pay) when the offer is paid
3. HMPPS to set the detail of the pay band 2 proposal
4. HMPPS to enter into urgent negotiations with the unions with immediate effect to agree the protocols which will govern the award and payment of overtime and the overtime incentive scheme going forward for staff on pay bands 2-6. Both overtime and the incentive scheme must be administered fairly and transparently AND GIVE ACCESS TO ALL STAFF WHO CHOOSE TO TAKE UP THE OFFER IRRESPECTIVE OF PAYBAND AND ROLE. These talks must also clear up the on-going misapplication of sessional pay for overtime and the confusion over the relationship between overtime and unsocial hours to the unions’ satisfaction.
Napo’s Negotiating Committee also AGREED THAT OUR CURRENT TRADE DISPUTE IS NOT FULLY RESOLVED AND TALKS CONTINUE AT HIGH LEVEL ON THE NEED TO REDUCE WORKLOADS.
WHAT NEXT?
Subject to the urgent talks next week, the rules for the extension of overtime and the overtime incentive scheme should be published shortly. HMPPS should also confirm to staff what they are entitled to by way of backpay for the early payment of this year’s salary increase with effect from 1 April.
With probation pay falling further and further behind prison service pay (Prison staff got a 5% pay rise last week) our attention will then turn to next year’s pay claim. Members can expect to be consulted on your ideas for our 2025 pay claim in the autumn.
THANKS
Thanks to all the Napo members who took part in our digital consultative ballot back in June. Of those voting, 98% said that they would be prepared to consider industrial action to get HMPPS to offer more pay if formally balloted. This showed HMPPS the strength of feeling of members over their pay and this could not be ignored.
3. HMPPS to set the detail of the pay band 2 proposal
4. HMPPS to enter into urgent negotiations with the unions with immediate effect to agree the protocols which will govern the award and payment of overtime and the overtime incentive scheme going forward for staff on pay bands 2-6. Both overtime and the incentive scheme must be administered fairly and transparently AND GIVE ACCESS TO ALL STAFF WHO CHOOSE TO TAKE UP THE OFFER IRRESPECTIVE OF PAYBAND AND ROLE. These talks must also clear up the on-going misapplication of sessional pay for overtime and the confusion over the relationship between overtime and unsocial hours to the unions’ satisfaction.
Napo’s Negotiating Committee also AGREED THAT OUR CURRENT TRADE DISPUTE IS NOT FULLY RESOLVED AND TALKS CONTINUE AT HIGH LEVEL ON THE NEED TO REDUCE WORKLOADS.
WHAT NEXT?
Subject to the urgent talks next week, the rules for the extension of overtime and the overtime incentive scheme should be published shortly. HMPPS should also confirm to staff what they are entitled to by way of backpay for the early payment of this year’s salary increase with effect from 1 April.
With probation pay falling further and further behind prison service pay (Prison staff got a 5% pay rise last week) our attention will then turn to next year’s pay claim. Members can expect to be consulted on your ideas for our 2025 pay claim in the autumn.
THANKS
Thanks to all the Napo members who took part in our digital consultative ballot back in June. Of those voting, 98% said that they would be prepared to consider industrial action to get HMPPS to offer more pay if formally balloted. This showed HMPPS the strength of feeling of members over their pay and this could not be ignored.
Unions facilitating the insult , that's what I'm getting
ReplyDeleteYes good point the unions just facilitate management.
DeleteIs it ok to repost my comment here Jim? No worries if not.
ReplyDeleteThis agreement is so unfair compared to the prison 5% and also between same Probation grades who are at different points on the pay scale. Depending on which pay point you are on in the three year deal, some staff will receive around £2,000 (but they only benefit from 50% of this rise as additional as they would have got it for 6 months anyway). If you are a Band 3 and currently on £30,208, (which is not the top of the band) you would only increase to to £30,285 - a grand total of £77 increase for the year (<1% rise). If on Band 4 and currently on £39,821, you only in increase to £40,165 £344 for the year (<1% rise). The original table states for a Band 2 now on £24,255 they will move to £24,255! A typo? A Band 5 currently on £45,500 (which is the top point of the band), will move to £46,000 - a £500 (1% rise) increase for the year!
Napo state they have asked hmpps: HMPPS to set out what staff on each pay point in pay bands 2-6 can expect by way of lump sum backpay (gross pay) when the offer is paid. Were they not able to do the Quick Look I have before agreeing to this pitiful rise? They are likely now to have played their hand and are unlikely to get a decent deal next year as HMPPS will deem this as the catch-up pay sorted and agreed!
I am ashamed to work for an organisation that has so little respect for its workforce. I feel undervalued, unheard and exhausted. I think it’s finally time to leave. Good luck to the 1000 new probation officers next year.
ReplyDeletePNC probation 'NEGOTIATING 'committee. really , did that deal need negotiating ? am confident my Nan would have came out of the meeting with the same deal ...
ReplyDeleteshe won't be busy in the autumn so can sort next year's as well save the PNC the bother
If the service is , lets say, on average working at 20% above absolute capacity, you could do the maths based on WMT, or vacancies in your team, then 20% of your time is overtime. And stick to whatever role boundaries still exist between PSO and PO. Whatever is agreed now and going forward, it really is time to work to our contracts, not to the pressured and bullying of the organisation. Volunteer for nothing NOTHING. Those "opportunities to develop your career" are just opportunistic attempts to wring yet more blood sweat and tears out of you.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't agree more, although would add.: do the absolute minimum to survive which does not affect public protection, or real work with the people you supervise....minimal and scant delius entries, foget CRISSA recording, one or two sentences max in OASYS sections 1-13, do away with incessant recording just record the basics in bullet points, don't bother with risk registers reviews, if you must do "online mandatory learning" skip through it as quickly as you can....in other words, shelve the bollox which we all know is meaningless anyway to protect your sanity
Delete'Members can expect to be consulted on your ideas for our 2025 pay claim in the autumn'
ReplyDeleteBecause clearly Napo have run out of ideas and are worried that in the Autumn they'll accidentally suggest that PO's and PSO's double there caseloads, offer to house prison leavers in there own homes and be paid in platitudes and fairy dust! Oh but with a hard won bonus of daily emails from the wellbeing team...
I am now going to look for another job. How can NAPO agreed this on behalf of members when it’s so derisory. HMPpS saw Napo coming.. I would rather take industrial action and take a stand. I stand to go up £500 in October and a colleague £77. It’s not just that ii’s the poor value HMPPS has of its probation staff .
ReplyDeleteNapo accepts the offer?
ReplyDeleteI thought Napo was made up of the membership. I don’t recall being asked to vote on this pay offer. I’m awarding myself an extra £25 a month by stopping paying my subs. Napo does not represent me anymore.
Prison POM have just had an email to set out 9 hours overtime each week for 12 weeks will get them £1500 bonus - so probation officers sat in prisons doing the same role get zero !
ReplyDeleteTo be fair to NAPO I wasn’t expecting anything after they endorsed and pushed a 3 year pay deal which I didn’t vote for. Sadly others did accept it and here we are. When are the members / the workforce going to realise that you only get what you agree to? The offer wasn’t good enough then and it’s not good enough now. Stop wingeing about what NAPO are up to and tell them what we expect and then stand by your convictions!
ReplyDeleteLower caseloads
Acceptable work levels
Less admin and more time with the people we work with
Move from the civil service and back to locality working.
Back to evidence based practice to reduce offending and help people reintegrate successfully into the community.
Just seen Jobs advertised on Civil Service Jobs.
ReplyDeleteProbation programme facilitators ( formerly the domain of PO grades until they eroded demarcation lines ) £25,310 to £30,968.
Prison OSG (Operational Support Grade, I.e non operational,)£25,626.
I can see where the money is coming from to make the paltry pay offer!
It’s not an offer. They can’t call it an offer as we were already getting that pitiful pay rise.
ReplyDeleteWhat about the 5% everyone else is getting except probation? Why didn’t Napo secure that?
Who did Napo consult before “accepting”? When were members balloted after HMPPS changed its response?
What’s the likelihood to we’ll be told to set out 5 hours overtime every two weeks to receive £125 or 5 hours a week every four weeks for £250? What about all the overtime we’ve already done?
Truly shocking.
If I’m right Napo has secured probation staff £77 extra to work in inadequate unsafe racist probation offices?
ReplyDeleteInspectors found casework across all four of the Inspectorate’s delivery standards to be ‘INADEQUATE’, despite the STRONG strategic approach and direction shown by PDU LEADERS.
https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmiprobation/media/press-releases/2024/08/essexnorthpdu2024/
Inspectors were concerned that some staff reported feeling UNSAFE and had experienced RACISM, DISCRIMINATION, and POOR BEHAVIOUR at their workplace. Whilst senior leaders are taking steps to address this, it is critical this work continues to be prioritised
https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmiprobation/media/press-releases/2024/08/bedfordshirepdu2024/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1e5154j4z0o.amp
ReplyDeleteSo I’ll walk into work Monday knowing prison poms sat beside me who are not professionally qualified unlike probation officers - they only hold low and medium risk cases, so basically zero one to one work or complex risk assessments and are on around £5k more than me , now have a 5% pay rise plus £1500 bonus - wow
ReplyDeleteThank your “strong probation managers and leaders”.
DeleteIf nothing has been signed then Napo can go back and admit they've screwed up and start again on Monday. I'm actually just as pissed off with Shabana Mahmood for authorising this offer and thinking it was acceptable. If she does think this is what Probation staff are worth then she's no better than any of her Conservative predecessors...
ReplyDeleteWhy you think drs and teachers and other public sector staff get better pay ? Not just because you all are glorified admin workers but because they have a sense of collectivity and are prepared to take action rather than being a bitter and supine workforce
ReplyDeleteThe junior doctors deal was not what it was reported to be! Actually around 4% as it included previous years settlement.
DeleteActually insulting! The lord chancellor was probably laughing her head off expecting unions to actually ask for 12% and a lump sum like they’ve been banging on about, she probably couldn’t get her pen out quick enough to sign a deal that WE ALREADY HAD! And watch PDU heads cap overtime / stop overtime now this will be in place so we won’t even be able to claim enhanced rates, and as for the “overtime bonus” for 5 hours a week extra can’t wait to see what hoops we have to jump through to claim that, probably an overtime CBF framework linked to PMF.
ReplyDeleteJust read Napo paper. They are a bit dense in the PNC we agree is agree. Adding reservation is irrelevant because they agreed someone needs to educate the team of light brains.
ReplyDeleteI am sitting here updating my CV and applying for jobs with better remuneration, less hours, less stress and where my autonomy will not be eroded by half baked management grade staff. Those in management do not share the same ethos as operational grades they just want boxes ticked and avoid getting pulled into red dashboards they do not have to face offenders who are angry that they are only getting a ten minute appointment. Luckily I manage my caseload well and do minimal over the hours, I never open my laptop or phone from 4pm on a Friday until 9am on a Monday, whatever happens at the weekend is not my concern. I will take my pension and maximum lump sum and reinvest it in a private scheme with maximum benefits for me and my family.
ReplyDeleteSuggest you look at DBS 4 SPOs/POs in NE left and speak very positively. SPOs took slight pay drop but report better work life balance, less stress and better treatment.
DeleteMove into the real world. Nobody wants a “slight pay drop”.
DeleteThere’s lots of other organisations that a better employers with better opportunities. Don’t think that you have to take a pay cut either. Many organisations pay better too.
DeleteLump sum. By the time I’ve paid the tax, NI and student loan (yes, still paying it off even though I’ve had a ‘good job’ for over 20 years), I’ll be left with nothing, like the last ‘lump sum’.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteWhat a load of shite. “Bumper” pay rise my backside and I’ve seen no £1000 bonus.
Our shite probation unions Napo and Unison allowed the Ministry of Justice to back date a shite pay rise we were already getting in October 24 and now acting like our saviours. Overtime on evenings and weekend should have always been time and a half.
It’s a sleight of hand to justify probation staff not getting the 5% and the bonus HMPPS just gave prison officers!!
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/probation-staff-bumper-pay-overtime-33389037.amp
“Probation staff get bumper pay and overtime boost amid wave of early release prisoners”
https://eastangliabylines.co.uk/politics/justice/probation-crisis-early-releases-will-push-system-to-breaking-point/
ReplyDelete'Getafix
If the membership and unions were stronger there is a way out of this without striking....... we simply tell the employer we will not work any overtime until our base pay is modernised like the rest of hmpps.
ReplyDeleteThis would fuck up their SDS40, WD40 and any other scheme they have in mind to give us more work
It would push this latest yes latest insult so far down their foie gras filled throats they would need WD40 to get it out
At this precise time we are in a very strong position here . someone tell the unions
The union leadership is weak and working against us. Look at the deal they just endorsed. How is HMPPS getting away with giving 5% to prison staff but not probation staff. Instead we get a pay increased we already had!!!, Enhanced pay for unsocial hours as “temporary”!!! and £150-£250 as a “bonus” for all that overtime which staff have to jump through hoops for is insulting.
DeleteWith all this rioting the prison population is about to explode. What’s the Justice Minister going to do then?
14:38 this is HMPpS working as it always does
DeleteSo I'm assuming NAPO have to put the accepted offer to the members to vote on before pen is put to paper, or is it a done deal and they have indeed screwed us over?
ReplyDeleteIt's accepted. Napo put some nonsense to it but accepted is agreed .
Deleteit seems they have screwed us over. the question is why did they give up the opportunity to use the strong position we are in ? the best position for some time ?
ReplyDelete16.21 - because the unions are enamoured with the new government.
Deletesome negotiating position unions could have capitalised on
ReplyDeleteSDS40 imminent.
Thus solving crisis in entire CJS.
Media and Public watching.
97% strike mandate from members.
Work to rule, refuse overtime, then strike!
ReplyDeleteNo longer want to be associated with NAPO over this thoroughly atrocious pay deal. I have never been out of a union but have had to concede NAPO officials at the highest level are out of touch and innept. looking for another career as after decades of poor treatment enough is enough. Soon to be out PO for better pay
ReplyDeleteGenuine question, but what salary would people accept (as a PO) as worthy for the role?
ReplyDeleteFor me, it's more about keeping slightly above inflation at the very minimum, which hasn't happened over the last 15 years. PO's have to gain a specific degree and undergo 2 years training before qualifying and then take on a huge amount of responsibility, yet we are at risk soon of being paid less than Prison Officers etc who get a trained over a number of weeks!? There's also a feeling we aren't as important as other public sector workers! But that's the easy part, the hard part is removing all the pointless tasks and targets we have been lumbered with over the last 5 years or so which have nothing to do with public safety or rehabilitation, but everything to do with data gathering and creating a false layer of shit to cover our backs in case of an SFO. Paying us more won't stop the fact most sickness is stress related because whatever the managers say, they mainly don't care and just want targets hit so they look good....
DeleteN
Its a good question but I suspect you won't get a straight answer.
DeleteI notice the following post hasn't had any comments posted:
"Unison's review of the 3 year deal states:
the 3 year deal for probation band 4 starting on pay point 1 in 2022:
apr 2022: £30,812
apr 2023: £33,342
oct 2023: £34,509
apr 2024: £36,255
oct 2024: £38,435
* That's a £7,500 lift in two & a half years
Top of Band 4 scale in 2022?
apr 2022: £38,289
apr 2023: £38,289
oct 2023: £39,821
apr 2024: £41,082
oct 2024: £42,000
* That's a £3,500 lift"
Clearly circa £40,000 isn't enough, judging by the angry comments re-pay.
https://uk.indeed.com/career-advice/pay-salary/average-uk-salary
"What is the average UK salary?
According to the Office for National Statistics (ONS), the average annual salary for full-time employees in the UK in 2023 was £42,210, up 5.4% from 2022... The average salary in the UK can be misleading due to a small number of people earning a lot. The median salary—the middle point if all the salaries are plotted on a graph—gives a more accurate view of the UK average wage. According to the ONS, the median average salary for full-time employees in 2023 was £34,963, up 5.8% from 2022.
Here are the top-paying industries in the UK in 2023 and their median annual earnings for full-time employees, according to the ONS:
Electricity, gas, steam and air conditioning supply: £50,528
Financial and insurance activities: £48,197
Mining and quarrying: £46,978
Information and communication: £44,733
Professional, scientific and technical activities: £41,453"
Looks like probation is right on the money???
That is all well and good if you are at the top of your pay scale. POs should be starting on £42000.
Delete"POs should be starting on £42000."
DeleteWhy?
PO starting salary in 2024 is £35,000, moving to £42,000 in five years. Why is it people think they are so good from the get-go that they're all worth top dollar & that they're entitled to it?
Whatever happened to earning your stripes, building your career, developing your skills & experience?
Its bad enough having to swallow the fact that uber-priveleged brats at the so-called 'elite' universities are recruited as graduates by "city" businesses (insurance, legal, banking, asset traders) on insane six-figure starting salaries; or that they move into politics as SpAds or policitcal aides on £75,000+ & get gifted a seat in the House of Lords before they're 30.
You want to focus on money? Don't become a social worker or probation officer.
I finished my career on top of the PO scale in 2016. Many friends & associates working in IT, data, media & engineering were on at least double what I was earning, some earning five or six times & travelling the world on expenses. We made the choices that suited our belief systems, our skills & our abilities... we lived within our means as best we could... and still do, as best we can.
Band 3 should be band 4, band 4 should be band 5, and band 5 should be band 6. That would be a good start. Though saying that, it's crazy that VLOs are paid the same as POs despite not needing to qualify.
ReplyDeleteYes it’s crazy unqualified VLOs are band 4. There’s unqualified Programmes managers, unqualified UPW managers, unqualified and unqualified Business managers at band 4 and 5. Deputy’s are going through evaluation to get Band 7.
DeleteIt’s crazy qualified Probation officers have been band 4 forever and our admin band 2 forever. We’ve had no job evaluation even though VLOs and admin managers have been raised to bad 4. All that fight for VLOs when it is POs and PSOs that should have moved up a band.
Frontline probation workers always ignored. Except POs in NCA teams are Band 5 and their SPOs band 6. They pay more to probation officers that do not work in probation. What say unions about that?
NCA do not have PO/SPOs. Do your research before having a rant and get the department right for a start
DeleteUnqualified unqualified oh dear you must try and appreciate others in differently skilled roles are differently qualified. At the least try and understand a pi qualification whatever form is just not a valuable asset in probation. It is narrow and offers nothing extraordinary on an internal assisted training plan.
DeleteSorry no, nothing to do with appreciation. They are advertised as “Qualified Probation Officer”.
DeleteIt’s the NSD. They pay POs as band 5.
DeleteTo manage 10 cases and act all important. At least it sets a precedent for all POs to be B5. If the unions could be bothered to act.
Delete19:17 in the early 1990s Probation Officers had pay parity with a police inspector although the job was very different then.
ReplyDeleteWe were respected qualified autonomous professionals rather than data inputters.
I started on a little over 16k plus area weighting (not London) a car allowance, meal allowance and unsocial hours payments.
I got two pay rises per year, an increment plus the national award but it took 13 years to go to top of the scale, later reduced to 11 years.
If you do the maths and take inflation into account you will see that the direction of travel is backwards.
We want a bloody good pay rise because the Chief has made the job infinintly harder and 90% of management are bullies, so basically it's danger money
ReplyDeleteWhy is bullying so rife in probation? It's not exactly a high-powered high-flying career, but those perpetrators behave as though it is, strutting around. I remember it to this day, the blatant lying, the sheer nastiness of it, when all you're trying to do is earn a wage and look after your family. It was vile.
ReplyDeleteNo different in any other industry or service. Too many people promoted above their temperament and ability and the power goes to their heads. Many interim SPOs use POs, PQIPS and NQOs to evidence that they're competent at the role, at their expense and that could include ripping to pieces an ISP or disciplining them for some dumb infraction. I was bullied as a PQIP- many of us were.I was stupidly berated by an SPO why wasn't I trained on OASYs, even though this was not in my control and hadn't had the training. There's a lot of insecure, spiteful and thoughtless people out there, even in Probation. It's human nature combined with office culture and stupid people abusing power, often with a racial dimension. Very little gets done about because of existing tribal relationships or cliques. We have that anomie: a PQIP who is very full of themselves, without much of a track record. Quite insufferable. In addition, bullying exists because of unrealistic targets, people above you under pressure so they take it out on subordinates- referred to as 'colleagues' when they feel inclined to humanise you and make you feel inclusive, on their terms, of course! Oh, and let's not forget gaslighting. Such a feature of the modern workplace and the classic, "why are you so negative" to deflect from their shortcomings or the office culture. This also plays out in the tedious and unfair emphasis on it not being about the workload but how you handle it. Probation Reset is light relief for some. But it's not about a duty of care around excessive workloads which has been the bane of the job for years, but to stop probation moaning that they don't have capacity so prisons can open the floodgates. One final thought: how did we get to this crisis point in prison overcrowding. What happened to the threshold before the threshold?
DeleteA PQIP who is "insufferable", you have quite a low threshold for suffering seemingly. What you mean is you just want to work with your mates, those that agree with you and that wont challenge your biases.
DeleteNot fair many readers will recognise the post details as reasonably accurate. Many promoted are really just chosen and not able or have good work ethic. Having retired I reflect more clearly.
DeleteHave worked in various places without witnessing or experiencing bullying. There's something about promotion in probation that triggers some to become over defensive or very vindictive. It must be something to do with the lack of choice of candidates, lack of experience, inability to manage. All places have problems, but bullying competent staff out of their jobs? I didn't witness that until I worked for probation.
DeleteI watched a PO in my office interview 7 times for SPO over one year, and they never got it pretty much same panel every time, then watched another PO who they wanted interview once, got it and now deputy head.
DeleteBullies at all levels in Probation, top down and bottom up
DeleteAnon at 21:35 From Twitter:-
Delete"I’ve been this probation officer but to be honest, you can often miss out on the smallest thing. I’ll tell anyone going for promotion, preparation is key. I’ve interviewed many since and you immediately know who has put the prep in and who hasn’t."
It's not new in probation managers have bullied who they don't like for many years and it is passed down. Selections have always been choice not merit. There are some.disgracful acts that have seen some acos caught and many spos and they all get pensioned off so we end up with sscl instead. Corruption killed probation nothing else was needed.
DeleteWorking in a YJS /YOT in London I would say that a PO should be on a scale of 36000 to 45000 plus weighting that matches YJS scales so 48 max in London 45 elsewhere is sensible
ReplyDeleteThank God for our excellent leaders who have fought so hard for frontline staff to get the recognition they deserve with strong protection of our Ts and Cs. They have resolutely defended Probation values and ensured Ministers are fully briefed on the need for gold standard Probation Service to be maintained. They are great examples of Totally Quality Management. This is why they have such strong support from front line staff.
ReplyDeleteHa Ha Ha, as if!!!
PS anyone know who the chief Probation Officer is?
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6627b896d29479e036a7e665/HMPPS_Organisation_Chart_April_2024.pdf
DeleteI wonder if this organogram (showing primarily white privilege at the heart of hmpps) might help?
The white crony top tier and their privilege explains why HMIP are assessing probation PDUs as racist.
Deletehttps://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmiprobation/media/press-releases/2024/08/bedfordshirepdu2024/
Inspectors were concerned that some staff reported feeling unsafe and had experienced racism, discrimination, and poor behaviour at their workplace. Whilst senior leaders are taking steps to address this, it is critical this work continues to be prioritised to break down cultural and morale barriers at Bedfordshire PDU.
Too much use of the word. It's like a claim to alleviate all the failings .. What exactly are these pdus incidents why were they not recorded and acted upon or if so did the issues get managed recorded and learning take place. It's a catch all phrase these days and getting meaningless any work example should be available to all for development . More likely the claims are disproportionate to reality. What's the real evidence than these standard suggestions and are staff relying on on this get out clause.it all has to be addressed colleagues are fearful.
DeleteAnon 19:00 let’s repeat that for you “racism, discrimination, and poor behaviour”. Unless you work there it’d be impossible to say “claims are disproportionate to reality”. Usually where people are coming forwards it’s alot worse!!
DeleteLet's repeat the message racism in the workplace oh well why are these staff not being dismissed for gross misconduct on mass. Perhaps the claims are disproportionate to the realities. Every report suggests a racist homophobic discriminirry environment so where are the dismissals none because the claims are not supported by the evidence clear enough to me and senior management .
DeleteShocking to read racism and homophobia is not “clear enough to me and senior management”. I’m glad I do not work with you.
DeletePerhaps the evidence is not “clear enough to me and senior management” because that is where the problem lies. Perhaps the claims are very accurate but managers have failed to act. Perhaps managers are the problem. Is this not what your reports are telling you?
If “Every report suggests a racist homophobic discriminatory environment” and there are no “dismissals” then ask yourself what is really happening.
Anon 18:16 because people are not being dismissed does not mean reported incidents of racism, homophobia or other discrimination are untrue. I’ve work in many offices where probation staff and managers use the same “but nobody has been dismissed” rubbish. It’s called covering it up!!
Delete“why are these staff not being dismissed for gross misconduct on mass”
DeleteYou tell us, you work there where “senior leaders are taking steps to address this“
https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmiprobation/media/press-releases/2024/08/bedfordshirepdu2024/
2203 good point and I know it's coverup actually as no area would admit these issues it would give automatic legal claims for compensation to any litigious minding victim
Delete1547 same old useless drum banging hysteria led response . Just find the evidence make the claims lawful or shut up.
“drum banging hysteria”? Are you for real? I really worry for any black staff and people on probation working with you!!!
Deletehttps://www.civilserviceworld.com/news/article/civil-service-union-working-up-proposals-for-new-independent-payreview-body
ReplyDeleteCivil service unions the FDA and Prospect are working up plans for an independent pay review body for rank-and-file officials to plug a gap in the current system.
DeleteFDA assistant general secretary Lauren Crowley said the proposals would be presented to government as a way to remedy "fundamentally broken and outdated" methods for deciding civil service pay.
Chancellor Rachel Reeves last week accepted the recommendations of a swathe of public sector pay review bodies, resulting in above-inflation pay rises for teachers, NHS staff and prison officers among others.
Members of the senior civil service will also get an inflation-busting 5% rise, on the recommendation of the Senior Salaries Review Body. In fact, some SCS members could get an uplift of 6.4% if they are currently at the bottom of SCS Pay Band 1 because of the impact of a £1,000 increase in the minima in tandem with the 5% hike.
While rank-and-file civil servants – the vast majority of departmental and agency staff below SCS grades – have also been awarded an average pay rise of 5%, they do not benefit from an independent review body to make recommendatons on the adequacy of their remuneration. Instead HM Treasury and the Cabinet Office decide on pay-remit guidance for departments. Over the past decade civil servants have typically received lower annual pay rises than other public sector workers.
Crowley said the plans to work up a blueprint for all civil servants to be covered by an independent pay review body followed an analysis commissioned from Incomes Data Research last year, in conjunction with Prospect.
"Based on our research and members’ insights, we have begun the process of shaping proposals for government on how an independent pay review body for grades below SCS could work," she said.
Thanks Jim this interesting can anyone tell me if we can join this union to get our pay the same as civil servants given the mess Napo have made of our last deal.
DeleteThe members all three unions voted to accept the last three year pay deal.
DeleteThe pay deal referred to above is for 2025; I’m aware that that our unions will be opening the next pay deal talks for 2025 at some point
Yes because Napo offered no fight for us and left us to a battered delayed protracted rubbish deal and didn't encourage us to reject it and mount a proper fight they got it wrong as time has played out and the pay has been outstripped by other unions actions to the benefit of their members so who in Napo runs this mess and bad decisions.
DeleteUnions, managers, senior managers, all were complicit in pushing through the pay deal.
DeleteTrouble at mill.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.civilsociety.co.uk/news/prison-charity-faces-funding-cliff-edge-after-failing-to-extend-moj-contract.html
A charity which trains people to become prison officers has failed to extend a government contract which provides the main source of its income, due to a branding issue.
DeleteThe Ministry of Justice (MoJ) said it awarded Unlocked Graduates an extension to its current contract, which provided 96% of its £4.21m income in the year to March 2023, but the charity then withdrew after trying to change the terms of the deal.
Civil Society understands the disagreement concerns the branding of the prison officer recruitment scheme, with the charity wishing to provide the services under its own banner instead of that of the government department.
The MoJ said its tender included a requirement that the brand of the scheme, which Unlocked Graduates has run for eight years, must be owned by the department rather than any third party and that changing these terms would risk a legal challenge.
Unlocked Graduates, which employs more than 50 people, would not comment on the branding issue but said it was “deeply saddened” that it had been unable to agree terms with the MoJ and that it does not have a contract to recruit any further cohorts to its programme.
“We hope in the coming weeks that the new government can work with Unlocked to find a way forward so we are able to recruit a 2025 cohort,” it said in a statement.
“Not doing so ultimately deprives the prison service of the talent it so desperately needs and deserves.”
MoJ: ‘Disappointing’ to see charity withdraw
Consultant Jonathan Simons, who claims to have come up with the charity’s name, wrote on social media that “massively conservative legal and procurement advice” may have contributed to the disagreement.
“The answer of the last government seems to be to have offered Unlocked a new contract in which they have to surrender their brand, their training materials, and decisions on who stays on the programme and how they’re supported,” he wrote.
“Essentially, a totally controlled government outsourced model. Unlocked can’t agree to that. And nor should they.”
An MoJ spokesperson said: “Unlocked Graduates is contracted to provide its valuable service recruiting talented new prison officers until 2026 and we thank them for their work.
“The terms of the tender process for the prison officer graduate scheme were clear throughout the procurement process and accepted by all bidders, including Unlocked Graduates.
“We offered Unlocked Graduates the contract on those terms and it is disappointing to see them withdraw from the process at this late stage.
“However, changing the terms after the tender process would have risked a legal challenge and a resultant waste of taxpayers’ money.”
They all leave after the training realising that it’s nonsense and all the prison service is intent on is incarcerating people and little else ,
ReplyDeletehttps://www.bigissue.com/opinion/uk-riots-prisons-ian-acheson/
ReplyDeleteWork to rule, refuse overtime then strike! It really is that simple. What are we waiting for?
ReplyDeleteAnd then you end up doing the work anyway. No, unions are here to force the employer to sort out workloads.
DeleteWrong workloads employee care agreement brought in formally as a national and local dispute process leading to most regions striking. It provided a regional weightings arrangement and traffic lights hand back right. The current Napo incompetence saw them negotiate the hard fought health and safety protection away although h and s still provides yet still no resurrection. Just McKnight was a real leader the current is a joke. Ret spo.
DeleteAnd yet workloads are double what they should be and work continues to be allocated.
DeleteMid 20s punitive , holy than thou new breed are probably anti union they all live at home and think being treated badly in the workplace is normal hence no strike no power no 5 per cent pay deals simple as that apathetic and not very bright a bad mix
ReplyDeleteBlame everyone else for your misfortunes, but how many are prepared to make an individual complaint against their treatment and unacceptable working conditions?
DeleteIt's just so much easier to cry off sick.
Both the employer and unions know it's very few and that's precisely why probation is a prime target for a constant shafting.
Persistent whinging will get you nowhere. If you stand for it then you deserve what you've got.
Change requires action and taking some responsibility for the situation you find yourself in.
Isn't that something that probation staff try to instill in the people they work with?
'Getafix
Whereas the older dinosaur probation officers just moaned, whinged and then left. Or became managers !!
DeleteHere we go again, patronising, insulting and stereotyping
Delete“how many are prepared to make an individual complaint against their treatment and unacceptable working conditions?
DeleteIt's just so much easier to cry off sick.
Both the employer and unions know it's very few”
You’re very wrong. Many do complain. Workload and working conditions also feature as issue in a lot of other complaints, grievances and other processes. Managers play these down and unions are not proactive in supporting people.
Bad managers + crap unions + blame culture = where we are.
Mmm I usually follow your thoughtful balance gtx but I'm not sure what I get from your comments some ambulance maybe. As for those employee agreement on care why the hell aren't the unions not just re posting the agreements and position for a dispute. The GS is a dudd. As for 1647 comment or drivel. Their next lines will be passive aggressive projecting and some other psycho crap.
DeleteIt really is disappointing to hear colleagues making disparaging remarks about newly recruited colleagues. I joined the service decades ago. I remember that I suffered from colleagues saying similar things at the time including questioning my appointment as I could not drive but luckily there were other colleagues who were kind and supportive. I think we need to do a bit more pro social modelling at work and show newcomers that they are joining a caring profession. I really dislike what we have allowed our profession to become. We should not blame the unions or the employers but rather take responsibility for our own behaviour. Some of the behaviour I have witnessed recently towards new colleagues would have resulted in dismissal 20 years ago and that was before we were made subject to the Civil Service Code.
Delete11:41 not all “mid 20s” are naive to work environments or “live at home”. Maybe you were at 25 but doesn’t mean all are. Yes we have some robotic young graduates but some of the older POs are just as bad. In fact it’s these older ones now managers and senior managers that have been effing everything up for that past decade! Young and old, Probation is a big toxic mess of bullying, discrimination and bad practices. Many are in no fit state to be “supervising” offenders to change! No wonder the organisation does as it pleases.
ReplyDeleteAnd utter desperation....
Deletehttps://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/people/prisons-service-launches-trainee-recruitment-campaign-in-peterborough-4736190
Probation do not follow Acas procedures when investigating grievances despite them being government issued guidance for all organisations in the UK. In fact many of the senior managers on top salaries have never even heard of Acas!! It just shows how useless the probation unions are letting them get away with it and screwing over practitioners with their biased procedures always siding with management!
ReplyDelete"Probation is a big toxic mess of bullying, discrimination and bad practices.'
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with that, and more and more I'm questioning what value it brings to the CJS.
As for age? It's worth noting I think that anyone in the service now with a decade service under their belt, joined at exactly the same time as privatisation took place.
The last 10 years in probation have been wilderness years for the service, so I personally struggle to put a value on what a decades worth of experience means?
'Getafix
I despair at what my former profession has become.
Deletea pity that the post about parallels of concern about inadequate mental health service provision & inadequate probation service provision (inadequate funding, inadequate training, inadequate staffing, preference for 'metrics' & managerialism's dismissive attitudes to warnings from staff) has been 'lost' in the ether.
Deletehttps://www.cqc.org.uk/press-release/cqc-publishes-final-part-special-review-mental-health-services-nottinghamshire
It seems many POs WMTs have been recalculated (lowered by 12%, perhaps more`) to take into account the cases that have been moved into Probation Reset status. Of course, they didn't tell anyone until it was completed or make clear their intentions. Also it gives more capacity for SDS 40. Nice to be told. When a process can be made with more clarity and communication and it's not, it causes resentment and confusion. This is within the gift of those who carried this out.
ReplyDeleteYes that happened to me and my colleagues! We had been told it would be September that this was happening. Mine’s gone down my 9% even though I only had 2 Reset cases. I have emailed the relevant department
DeleteWe never used to be so obsessed with the WMT. It has never been fit for purpose and probably never will be. It is at best crude and does not take into account important factors that can impact on workload. The task of allocation and workload management needs to be returned to managers who should talk to their staff regarding their workload capacity. Managers have become dependent on systems that have deskilled and infantilised them. The present system could in fact cut them out altogether and the management level above who seem to be looking around for things to do.
DeleteI couldn't agree more....on reflection over the past 10 or so years, probation seems to have heavily invested in "systems" over investment in properly nurturing and training its staff....sometimes I feel it is the IT department, not probation management, who are really running the service....EPF tool, "consider a recall", statistical risk assessment tools, delius risk registers and data input tasks, and probably much more...all systems led approaches which add a lot of time to people's day to day work at the expense of deskilling them and investment in skills training which help people to actually work meaningfully with the people subject to probation
DeleteAs an experienced PSO with over 20 years service I have never felt so undervalued. The gap between PSO salaries and PO salaries is widening yet the roles we do are merging more and more. I have held CP cases and have a caseload of ‘complex’ medium cases which are certainly ‘risky’ and once over would have never been allocated to a PSO. I see this morning that the arrears amount re the pay deal for PSO’s is £582 a 4.6% increase and a 6.4% increase for PO’s with arrears of £1059 another slap in the face for hardworking PSO’s. I will no longer take on any work which I consider above my pay grade even as a favour to managers (and ours are good) until I am recognised for the work I do and paid n accordingly, that is if I am still in the job. I know many more PSO’s who feel the same, who are looking for alternative employment. Similar salaries but less stress and responsibility.
ReplyDeleteI always work my wage, not my hours. If I've been flat out all day, then come 3.30/4pm the laptop goes off and I go home.
DeleteI've been a PO for about the same time and agree with you about the blurring of responsibilities but let's be honest, they can hire and get PSO's ready for less money and in less time which makes the services life easier when it comes to dealing with the caseloads. Something are better though, I started as a PSO and back then a lot (not all!) of PO's treated PSO's like glorified admin to be bossed around!
DeleteWith regards to the pay 'rise'. The 4.6% and 6.4% they keep making such a big deal about is for those at the bottom of the pay scale. I'll get below £300 after tax in arrears which is obviously so much I'll instantly forget about all the extra work and shite as I'll be blinded by my new diamond encrusted reading glasses...
The MOJ has blocked the Web page so you can't post from your work laptop. They are running scared!
ReplyDeleteWhen you post from the employers laptop using the employers IT system you do not do so anonymously. They can easily see who has been posting on the blog from their computers or mobiles if they wish to do so.
Deletenot true, I can get on
Delete17:52 Not true, I can get on. 04:59, they may be able to see what sites you access but I don't see how they would be able to see if you had posted anonymously on this site or any other
DeleteWhether they can or can't view it, I would never access or post on this blog using work IT systems and would only ever comment anonymously....that is how low my trust and confidence is in the organisation I work for....its such a sad and sorry state of affairs that this is how I feel, how nasty I feel the organisation would be if they actually knew who I was, and how I don't feel able to express how I "really" feel anywhere other than via anonymously posting
DeleteThey can see and audit everything you do on your work laptop and phone.
DeleteThe drivers’ union Aslef said on Wednesday a deal had been agreed in principle with the Department for Transport (DfT) that would result in a pay rise of 5% for 2022-23, 4.75% for 2023-24 and 4.5% for 2024-25 – all backdated and pensionable.
ReplyDeleteProbation officers note this is what happens when you have some balls
That's because it's public, they don't care if it's in secret, keep posting!
ReplyDeletehttps://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/aug/14/labour-urged-to-scrap-4bn-tory-mega-jails-plan-and-fund-rehabilitation
ReplyDeletePay is not going into this month's wages. SSCL claim they know nothing about it from HMPPS
ReplyDeleteWe’ve been informed October pay. So it’s not really a ‘pay deal’ at all is it. It’s a bit of pitiful backpay.
DeleteSSCL generally claim to be ignorant of the employer’s decisions and state they merely follow orders. It beggars belief what a mess they make of our records including sending inaccurate information to pension providers. Who then is instructing them so incompetently and why aren’t they being held to account? HR were so much more competent in the Trusts
DeleteSscl are incompetent brutalising and nasty. They tell management what to do and it is management who follow the orders mangement are thick.
DeletePeople need trains . People don’t even know who we are.
ReplyDelete“same old useless drum banging hysteria led response . Just find the evidence make the claims lawful or shut up.”
ReplyDeleteAnonymous11 August 2024 at 22:45 Dude you seem secure in your white privilege but this is why racism and discrimination has festered like a poisonous blister over the past few decades in probation.
Calling out racism is not “drum banging” and no we shouldn’t “shut up”. It’s well known lodging racism and discrimination complaints is an uphill battle, "swept under the carpet" by managers.
Be concerned we’ve just witnessed race riots and we’re expecting prison and probation services with racism problems to manage the perpetrators.
https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmiprobation/media/press-releases/2024/08/bedfordshirepdu2024/
https://prisonreformtrust.org.uk/prison-service-is-neglecting-vital-race-and-equality-work/
You have mis read that it references claims of racism yet there are no dismissals no hearings and acknowledges management cover it up. If genuine claims are evidenced take the cases up outside the cover up sscl procedures because any non privileged brown person should realise racism claims have protected characteristics under the equalities act so hold the failing of treatment up to account . You don't have to be covered up.
DeleteProbation has a history of playing down racism complaints and the unions are not much better. Finding the evidence is easy, making the claim lawful is not. It’s an uphill struggle and you’re constantly accused of “banging the drum” or “using the race card”. If anon 22:25 works in probation that’s an example of the problem right there.
Deletehttps://www.doughtystreet.co.uk/news/contractor-who-suffered-monkey-chants-and-racial-abuse-probation-service-wins-pay-out
Mr Odain, a HMPPS contract worker, worked as a Probation Officer in their Reading Office from February 2018 until he resigned on 10 January 2020 after being racially abused by another contractor (H).
H made several race-specific comments to Mr Odain in the presence of HMPPS' employees, including "monkey chants", "gestures," and referring to Mr Odain as "coloured". Mr Odain reported this abuse to his managers. He raised a formal grievance, but HMPPS failed to take any action against H despite issuing "Management Advice" to those employees present for not intervening to prevent the abuse. Mr Odain resigned when H was allowed to return to work in the same office
That case was reported on here a while back. So what is the daily sort of stuff constantly referenced yet no cases to employment tribunal. What is Webster providing as examples. There is no privilege in the UK that's an adopted American phrase. Privilege might be an accelerate promotion positive action and specialised recruiting. This applies to particular supported people.
DeleteI think there's quite a few Probation staff that don't understand privilege or entitlement
ReplyDeleteThe whole concept of "white privilege" is in itself, an ideological narrative that as civil servants, we shouldn't be pushing.
DeleteAnd I think there’s quite a few probation staff that don’t understand what is inappropriate behaviour towards ethnic minority staff including instances of stereotyping, racist and sexualised language, and false allegations.
Deletehttps://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmiprobation/media/press-releases/2021/03/raceequalityinprobation/
Oh we do! We have our white privilege cards on hand! Unfortunately, we can't find anywhere that takes them so the vast majority are unused.
Delete“drum banging hysteria”? Wow! For those that cannot understand race equality is a problem for people on probation and staff remains "a work in progress".
ReplyDeletehttps://www.russellwebster.com/probation-race-equality-remains-a-work-in-progress/
Read it these comments are of context to the report.
DeleteWhite privilege, my arse , I grew up in a family of nine on a council estate in multicultural Liverpool in the 60s 70s . we had fuck all but my parents worked hard and so did my siblings. I have never been out of work and in my later years find myself working for probation on shit pay ... so please , to anyone, of any creed or colour please don't give me the term white privilege because I don't and didnt have it
ReplyDeleteThere are many kinds of privilege
DeleteI've heard the words "playing the colour card" by staff about colleagues as well as the term "blacks" to describe POPS/PUPS, I think we've got a way to go..
DeleteBut if you’re a professional working in the CJS then you should try to understand what this means for others, not just for yourself.
Delete“White privilege doesn't mean, or suggest, that you've had an easy life. It doesn't mean you haven't earned your successes but it DOES mean that your life hasn't been harder because of the colour of your skin”.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/52937905.amp
I've heard the words "playing the colour card"
DeleteMe too. Shocking.
I agree, 14.15 - but by using the term "white privilege" rather than the term "white people haven't experienced the disadvantage created by the colour of your skin" leads to dissent and resentment in the white community.
DeleteThink about the people "marching" or "rioting" against what they see as "immigrants" or "foreign cultures" 'taking over' their country - they hear "white privilege", "unconscious bias", and "celebrating diversity" as "celebrate and positively encourage all cultures other than white british culture please". Identification with "British" or "english" or "white working class" culture has somehow become vilified, or in some eyes seen as synonymous with racism.
Have you ever walked past a pub with a huge English cross flag out front and decided not to go in, thinking "that's a pub full of racists", or at least "that doesn't look like the kind of pub I want to walk into" and walk past? I certainly have. So I'm being "unconsciously biased", or even "consciously" biased against white british people too.
The point I've been making at 11:15 and 11:44 is that we (probation) need to try to understand, on an individual level, all the cultures, barriers, discriminations, biases our people on probation have experienced, not only those of ethnic minorities, as the starting point to good engagement, building rapport and empathy and problem-solving.
I suspect this will be an unpopular view but I'd like to express it in the vein of sensible discussion, and certainly not to be offensive or argumentative. If ALL probation staff were sent a questionnaire asking them how they feel, whether they feel their concerns are listened to, or how well they feel the organisation encourages them to "progress" etc etc I wonder whether most people would express discontent irrespectiveof their ethnicity. By only asking ethnic minority staff those questions in the HMIP inspection and others, the conclusion was drawn that those concerns were rooted in prejudice, discrimination and racism. If they had asked white staff the same questions they would have been able to deduce disparity in response between ethnic minority and white staff. I'm definitely not saying ethnic minority staff aren't experiencing discrimination....what I am saying is a) they weren't able to compare responses against the "white majority staff" and b) excluding white people from the inspection meant they weren't able to explore some of the answers they were trying to seek by doing so
ReplyDeleteOh the reverse racism response. *Rollseyes*
DeleteYes indeed the white privilege allegations say it all. Chips and shoulders a phrase long past seem to be making a way back. Some people are unable to accept things are more equal than ever and certainly no real evidence illustrating the contrary.
DeleteAnyone on probation gets the same shite treatment no matter what you are. The staff delivering it are also treated badly in the job by eachother management. What our whole group should bear in mind is that we are all treated to the e same shite and being anything else believe me it isn't any worse for any other souls .
Delete“things are more equal than ever and certainly no real evidence illustrating the contrary”
DeleteI don’t have to be black, gay or female to tell you that is total crap. And your perspective is why probation will never change for the better. Not until people like you have left.
There is no evidence to contradict that view and many silently agree.
Delete8.8% of ethnic minority people on probation found employment 6 months after release versus 14.5% of white people on probation....what conclusions can be drawn from this? a) probation staff are inherently racist or have subconscious prejudices which mean they don't try or encourage ethnic minority people into work? b) due to decades and more of racism, prejudice and discrimination a high proportion of these people come from poor and highly disadvantaged communities with the complex needs this creates, meaning it is much more difficult for these people to find work 6 months after release?
ReplyDeleteThere was little evidence probation staff had discussed culture, religion, ethnicity or experiences of discrimination with ethnic minority people on probation...does this mean a) due to inherent racism and unconscious bias probation staff were treating ethnic minority people differently to how they treat white people on probation or b) probation staff are really bad at discussing culture, ethnicity, religion and experiences of discrimination with EVERYONE they work with, irrespective of race? Should we ask young white working class men (for example) about their perspectives on their own culture, religion, whether they feel discriminated against, or only ethnic minority people on probation? Personally I feel these questions and discussions are pertinent to all the people we work with.
There’s a reason the focus was on ethnic minorities. It’s explained in the report. The fact you cannot understand this is a problem.
DeleteIt's become a mantra but absolutely not exampled as suggested. The report makes some points where there should be more policy driven awareness which is not the same as colleagues militating against anyone. You only read what you think you want it to mean.
DeleteSo official reports consistently reporting on racism and discrimination problems is a “mantra”. I think you didn’t read the report.
DeleteThanks 20:17 this is 11:44 and I do get you, but on the other hand just to clarify I wasn't suggesting HMIP or anyone have suggested anyone is militating against anybody. HMIP have, in my view, caused a lot of damage and harm with their reports - they have led some to conclude that "probation is racist", "probation discriminates against ethnic minority people on probation" or so on, when in fact it didn't actually say that at all. By giving two alternative explanations to two points HMIP did actually make, I was trying to say: by making these points, but failing to seek any analysis, evidence or explanation for "why" the reports have led some to, as you state "read what they think they want it to mean" i.e. "probation staff have white privilege and are either inherently racist or at best unconcsiously discriminating against ethnic minority people", when there are many possible explanations.
DeleteProbation is racist. It has a problem with racism, discrimination and bullying. The reports say this. I have seen it myself. For those experiencing and observing this there is no “other hand”.
DeleteThe probation service has always had problems with diversity inclusion and equality based on race. The police the prisons the CJS is the same. Multiple reports over many years show this. They always want to “analyse” to skirt around the truth.
Delete“The report also explored the experiences of ethnic minority probation staff. Key findings include:
inspectors heard distressing stories of inappropriate behaviour towards ethnic minority staff including instances of stereotyping, racist and sexualised language, and false allegations”
https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmiprobation/media/press-releases/2021/03/raceequalityinprobation/
Junior Doctors are offered a 20% pay rise over 2 year, Train Drivers get a pay rise of 5% for 2022-23, 4.75% for 2023-24 and 4.5% for 2024-25 – all backdated. Prisons get 5% and Probation well we get what was already agreed
ReplyDeletederisory
I am ashamed to work for an organisation that has so little respect for its workforce. I feel undervalued, unheard and exhausted.
Be very clear that junior doctors figure you quote is not what it appears as it consolidates previous pay awards. In real increase terms for the current year it is 4%. Average debt a junior doctor qualifying now will have is £55k. What this award does is lift a Foundation 1 doctor out of the pay bracket of a newly appointed McDonalds shift manager, just. Facts.
DeleteCompletely agree annon@07:22.
DeleteThere's no comparison with junior doctors.
It would be interesting to know just what 'value' some commentators place on the job that they do, and if the renumeration they feel they deserve is based on the labour the job demands, or a recognition of a more professional status?
'Getafix
Probation is no better than the police or prisons in terms of its culture these days it’s no longer an agency to support people and it treats its staff with the same disdain it does it clients , absolutely toxic organisation
ReplyDeleteHow can toxic organisations possibly be expected to rehabilitate the Hundreds being sentenced for the recent race rioting across the UK.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm23y7l01v8o
I think we can easily blunder into the ‘divide and conquer,’ trap by focussing on protected characteristics like race and gender.
ReplyDeleteI can identify entirely with 07:18, but also take the point made by 14:15. However as someone who would identify as a white male, I don’t feel I have anything in common with King Charles. Similarly, I guess most female colleagues feel little comparison between their lives and say, Olivia Henson or Black staff with Stella Braverman so we need to look beyond broad identities and issues which divide us to focus on what unites us.
Users of this blog have a common identity of probation staff and common struggles around wages terms and conditions.
Reading recent comments, it appears that we also have common enemies who have no vested interest in what we do and who put their own interests above all.
There is certainly a debate to be had, and change to be promoted but we should rally and be united around matters common to all of us as practitioners
The trap is actually to ignore focus on protected characteristics like race and gender. The reason we focus on them is so we don’t return to the 1970s although going by the recent race riots we’re not far off. The comments above are saying reports show these racist views are reflected in those probation colleagues and managers we work alongside. It may be wary for you to look beyond this but for many black staff it is not. That is the point!
DeleteJust is not accurate reflection of black staff treatment but colleagues and it isn't all black it is minority ethnic staff . Single focus as this illustrated who we are and what you are projecting . Looking to make issues where there none is a past event all people are smart to this sort of constant criticism. The organisation is truly reflective these of the society we work.
DeleteNo it is black and minority ethnic staff. We know the CJS is particularly unfair towards black boys, which I’m sure carries over to probation. The sad thing is that people like yourself go out of your way to say there is not a problem, when the BLACK staff are saying there is. Yes this reflects society today, we surely saw this in the recent RACE RIOTS.
DeleteOk what's the problems again be specific and where are the legal claims full revolving door nonsense. Make the cases in law let's see the strength of these allegations against the over accused white staff. It's an obstacle to building trust when all your group appears to claim is that they are victims. the BLACK staff are saying there is. Well what then spell it out.
DeleteThe employment agencies Red Snapper and Service Care Solutions are clearly not doing their job in providing temporary staffing given the level of vacancies nationally - there needs to be innovation to plug the vacancy gap which there will always be given the poor salaried staff package - no other providers of staffing/managed services are allowed through the doors any more - ridiculous situation
ReplyDeleteWe should be taking staff from all recruitment agencies. If someone is a qualified po it shouldn’t matter which agency they are with.
DeleteMaybe ex staff don't want to return for various reasons?
DeleteInterestingly, there was a fall-off of staff prepared to work when HMPpS didn’t renew the services of Servoca and replaced that agency with Service Care Solutions. The latter being generally not as good to deal with, delays in DBS checks, complicated application documents etc. I worked with both and Servoca was so much more efficient and true to form, they were ditched. Typical HMPpS senior decision making. I was also offered temporary contracts with HMPpS for 12 months to circumvent the agency which I declined because I retained control as an agency worker and was treated with far more respect by managers because of this. Once you were a direct employee the rude controlling behaviour of managers automatically started, they just can’t help themselves. My time as an agency worker was the happiest in my lengthy probation career ( I have experience of community/ prison/ courts/ YOS/ various secondments and specialist teams). I was courted many times to act up and apply for SPO roles but felt I could never behave to colleagues as the managers I witnessed did and still live with myself.
DeleteThose who want power shouldn't have it, those who should have it, don't want it.
DeleteProbation day all staff call on Wednesday should be boycotted by all to send a message
ReplyDeleteAgency money rubbish as well social worker and yot workers getting 10 to 20 per hour more
ReplyDeleteTen years ago the uk govt handed £tens-of-millions to private enterprise to fund making hundreds of probation staff unemployed. The money came from a Cabinet Office stash knoiwn as "The Modernisation Fund", its release being approved by Francis Maude, David Cameron, John Manzoni, Jeremy Heywood & Richard Heaton to finance Grayling's TR clusterfuck. The majority of that money disappeared into the pockets of those privateers & never reached the staff being axed.
ReplyDeleteThey used taxpayers' money to destroy a profession & impose their political ideology upon the justice system.
It was a disgrace & a scandal then; it remains a disgrace & a scandal.
It should have been a mainstream media headline that hundreds of probation staff were intentionally made unemployed by the govt, that it was a political act of professional vandalism funded by a shadowy source of vast sums of public money:
Andrew Selous, Assistant Whip (HM Treasury) & Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice - June 2015:
"Modernisation Fund monies were awarded to CRCs. Redundancy funding was allocated pro-rata to CRCs based on their size and estimated future staffing requirements... we have no plans to reclaim any monies allocated to CRCs from the Modernisation Fund; and consequently there have been no discussions with CRCs about this."
The tories used taxpayer money to reduce & reshape the probation workforce in their political image thereby generating all existing woes around probation pay, institutional racism, unsafe workloads & the total lack of organisational cohesion.
Totally agree.
DeleteI'd also like to remind everyone how rubbish the unions were.
How did they agree for us to transfer to the Civil Service with no rights for us to join the Civil Service pension scheme.
Ian Lawrence fell over as usual. The cs merger plan was averted many years before by Judy mcknights team who got the whole thing stopped because she insisted on equal cs pension enrollment. This is a fact of record.
DeleteWell as part of a bloody pay claim FFS why won't those tossers at Napo lodge an equal pay claim equal value in pensionable terms . It can be gender and race based comparison. Its not clever or rocket science just parity of pay and terms. You have to wonder is he incompetent colluding or lazy . Just get my terms up paye properly enhance my pension to those if all civil servants do the job we pay you for.
DeleteIt seems to me that the probation service as I knew it, ( retired 2 years ago) has gone forever and won’t be coming back. Wishful thinking unfortunately will not get us anywhere so it should be back to the drawing board.
ReplyDeleteWhat exactly do ‘they,’ want probation to deliver?
What resources will be required?
What qualifications will be appropriate?
What will be the appropriate rate of pay?
How will efficacy be measured?
Who will have control?
How will any new service fit with other criminal justice organisations?
The list of questions is endless, but the answers thus far have not been forthcoming.
I notice that in all the newspaper reports about the situation involving early release of prisoners, there has been little if any input regarding the impact upon the probation service and little or no contribution from NAPO to discuss the impact and consequences for their members.
I suspect we are heading in the direction of a parole officer set up where the only question will be,’did he comply, yes or no.’
The current service is repeatedly trashed in the media when things go wrong because staff are following a rehabilitative model when the authorities simply want monitoring and control.
If you look at the model the police use for monitoring sex offenders, High risk seen monthly, Medium risk seen quarterly and low risk seen annually, they are able to hit artificial targets and remain bomb proof when it all goes wrong because they have fulfilled their stated objectives.
Probation staff are compiling and reviewing OAsys, making nonsensical sentence plans, running programmes, providing accommodation, stating that they are protecting the public and setting themselves up to be blamed when it all goes wrong.
The only certainty in my mind is that whatever the future might hold, the present ‘leadership,’ should not be allowed anywhere near it.
There has to be a major modernisation process undertaken which begins with a massive clear out at the top, a move away from HMPPS and the recruitment of a raft of radical thinkers capable of defending their position and their staff and bringing innovative thoughts and practice into being.
Just because you didn’t see napo in the papers doesn’t mean napo didn’t speak with the media . If you read the guardian from today you’ll see quotes from napo officials re sds40
Deletehttps://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/aug/20/union-warns-of-probation-officer-shortage-ahead-of-prisoners-early-releases
DeleteDidn’t achieve much though. Napo is toothless.
DeleteWhen is probation joining the Civil Service pension scheme or getting that pay rise prison staff got?
How many staff on here complaining about pay are actually in a union.
Delete